Increasing UK species base?

There are some good suggestions in this mail of Jalmj’s. Let me respond to two of them:

1. Commercial importers: I suggest that readers of this European forum in the different countries name the foremost companies that have proved to be reliable importers of licorice gouramies in their country here in this forum. There are always the same names, but sometimes a new one is to be added. I think, the name of the company and the country would suffice; everybody can find an internet-URL himself. I suggest Helene should collect those names/countries and put it into one overview, after some time.

2. Breeders in Germany: Indeed, we have quite a few good breeders in our country with many offspring of different species at times. And often there is the problem to get these fish into the hands of good aquarists who are conscious about the special requirements of blackwater fish that eat live food only. The shipping of these fish is no problem in principle since very small containers (f.i. plastic bottles) suffice because they are no permanently swimming fish. A problem is temperature resp. season (cold winter! hot summer!) and time (customs! habits of different shipping companies!), even within the European Union. In other words: Shipping within the borders of one contry is much less risky than transnational shipping, even within the EU. Sometimes there are no problems at all, things go fast, sometimes it’s the contrary. Therefore, the time of the year right now is not the best to have first tries. I suggest that we see which companies would do such a job and what the costs are. That will need some time and the temperatures will rise again. The potential addressees could help by clarifying the customs conditions (especially the time needed) in your country. There maybe no problem at all, but there maybe many problems, too (for example if declared as “living animals”, and good companies do that).
All partners mus be clear about the risks. It is not possible to take the breeder/sender as the only one taking responsibility for that risks.
The costs for such a relatively reliable shipping accross the borders could be markedly higher than the simple price for the animals. This must be clear to anybody involved. The money must be transmitted before, but this is much easier now with SEPA-banking than it was before.
So, there is no opposition against shipping across the borders in principle. We are gladly willing to do this. But there is good and bad experience with the results. Once, the whole things needed two and a half days only form breeder to recipient, but on several occasions – although it was said to be a quick thing – the parcel was stored at a border/at a customs office for a week, and the animals were dead when at last it arrived. Maybe we can minimize that risks by choosing special companies and make a fair agreement on the risks.

I shall add a last note: We are definitely willing to organize a first international meeting of the Parosphromenus-Project in September 2015 in Hamburg (Germany). There will be about ten species available. As soon as details are clear, we publish them here.

I completely agree with jalmj. I would also like to obtain species of Paro with a definite identification. The most information we usually get from the LFS is the name of the importer and nothing else. As we all know, trying to identify stressed and colourless fish in a LFS aquarium is almost impossible. Without knowing anything of their origin, it’s a frustrating situation.

I recently purchased a group of P. Phoenicurus. They came into the UK at the same time as the positively identified fish arrived in Germany, they are small as are the German fish. They also look like the fish in the photos. But as I don’t have any positive information about location, can I be certain that they are Phoenicurus?

This is the kind of situation we end up with, and as I said, its frustrating.

To Russ.

This situation is what happens all the time, both in UK – Denmark, and also Germany. It is not as if the situation of bying though shops are any better here.
There are exceptions such as this recent import of p.phoenicurus, – it happens very rarely.

When I find parosphromenus in my local shops in Copenhagen I can never get a location, or if there is a location its most likely inacurate. Or the fish are not what they are said to be. Lately they have had p.gunawani (not!) and p.deissneri (not!) They sometimes even have p.deissneri, with the location Bangka (not!) … it is really difficult. I go every time to check, but I dont bye anymore unless its really really clear to me what species it is.

The import of p.phoenicurus in september in Germany was very exceptional. I would say though that identifying p.phoenicurus without locality is possible, – it is a very remarable fish with some clear markings which seperates it from other species. (see our species index)
And if it was in UK at the same time as the import in Germany, there could be good chances that it is p.phoenicurus.
However, I must say, I have also experienced that shops have a tendensy to suddenly have the same species, as if when one import is creating a lot of attention, such as the phoenicurus, – then the next time my shop gets fish its likely to be named as the last ‘popular’ import. And often isnt. For example suddenly there were p.gunawani all over, – now its p.phoenicurus (actually right now they have phoenicurus and deissneri, I should probably go and have a look 🙂 )

Living in Denmark to me probably resembles a little bit living in UK, – I have to go to Hamburg, – probably the plane to London would be faster, – but it is a lot better for me to get fish through personal contacts there than keeping on trying my luck in my local shops.

So I agree with you, and with John, we should see if there is a way to create not only something which could perhaps help here and now one time (at the international meeting) but perhaps also a more lasting structure within the project.
We have connections to for example Poland and Lituania as mentioned in the last Newsletter, where more people have joined the Project, and are forming a group helping each other, – I think it could be very relevant in UK too.

Have been thinking about this a little, and a few thoughts :

The Census is really important in the Parosphromenus Project, and the aim is to follow the status of each species. This is the way to get the overall picture of how any species is doing in private stocks. Secondary it gives the opportunity to see where off spring is, but this is only secondary.
To have a seperate Census would in my opinion not be good, – it would risk becoming confusing and unstructured.
It would be much better if many more from UK took part in it, – and perhaps we could ask Benjamin Wilden if it was possible to indicate which countries are involved, just by adding initials of country. Then it was possible to see who was based in UK.
But I think that we should be careful to keep the original purpose for the Census seperate from any lists of breeders or off spring.

But another thing is, – that initially when we started this homepage we had the intention of making a ‘members map’, for excatly the purpose which John is mentioning, – that it would be possible for members to see where other members live nearby.
To make this map became very difficult because some people write their adress, some dont, – some say yes its allright it can be seen public, some dont want that. And with so many countries it became really confusing. So I asked that we stopped it this way.

But this doesnt mean that I dont have maps of members, – I have just split them up in smaller areas, and they are not publicly available. But it is quite possible to make it so that a specifik group of user can access a particular map.

At present, I do have a UK map 🙂 … and I can make it so that it can be visible to a specifik group of users (UK members ? ) It is also quite possible to use this map as an information ‘tool’ – anything could be written in these maps, – it can be anonymous and say 1 person is living here, – or it can say name, adress, – you could even use it to enter who has what species – .
The problem with it now, is that for example in our adress list I have 22 mail adresses, – but only about 6 or 7 with adresses that could be put into a map.
If such a map should work, there would have to be some guidelines around it, – and it is of course also a work to be done. But I would be happy to help if you wanted to make it.

🙂 yes, that would be nice, – but we have talked about this before – and its really difficult to make a trustworthy list like that, – because it has to be completely reliable.
Its not much fun if you look at the list and see someone having reported a lot of offspring but forgot to report that its half a year ago.
Which is the kind of things that happens with this kind of online things.
But the more ideas the closer we could get to creating something which works eventually.

I am very aware of the fact that our private messaging is not at all optimal, – I should see if I could make it better, – I am sure there are ways in which it could be much more flexible, its just not very easy :blink:

Hey everyone,

it is a shame that I am not that present in this forum as i want to or maybe should.

Peter told me about your conversation and I think I should tell you, that the idea is really great. Everyone of us wants a real time census, but we also know that it is not possible. Some organisations tried similar things. The basis is a little tool of he homepage, where you can report your stock. Than you have important things to do and will never give an update to the stock. I did for years in the IGL and only a memory-letter made me update it for the reason of a real census.
So like Helene said it is not reliable. You will see the census has a great fluktuation of members and fishes, so this is our hobby. As a hobby noone has the fishes as the priority.
I think our system is established and a lot of people are taking part, because there is a memory-letter and a fixed time (there are still members without internet). Little changes are possible and the evolution oft he census is going on, but it seems like the simplest way ist the best.
I can collect or include some data like the location, but like Helene said, there was no request for the map and she maybe has some data for someone intrested.

Best wishes,

Bennie (Benjamin Wilden)