- This topic has 16 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hello all,
I am a new member of the Parosphromenus Project here in America.
I have been studying this excellent forum for a few months and have learned very much about how to keep and breed paros. 🙂 Thank you Helene for your kind welcome! And thanks to all for the great information, photos and experiences in keeping the paros. I hope I can successfully keep and breed paros and this forum has given me the best info to start.So, I just got some wild paros in today (from the trade, so no location or other collection data). I think they might be P. sumatranus, but would appreciate it if someone could confirm or give the correct ID. See photos below.
Male?
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/8oqg77.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/Bq0KNk.jpg[/IMG]Pair? (Hope so)
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/erDrok.jpg[/IMG]Female?
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/vhgX2v.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/Z0fKJf.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/912/nJOv8C.jpg[/IMG]They came in with water parameters of pH 7.6 and TDS of 220ppm. I matched the water params to begin the acclimation process. I will slowly lower water params to pH~4-5 and ms ~40. I received 6 fish and I believe there might be one male and 5 females. At some point I will separate out one pair for breeding, for now I’ll let them settle in and grow out some. I have them in a half-filled 40L aquarium with peat and java moss, plus several coconut caves and other hiding places. They look to be healthy, active and are already feeding on live grindal worms. BBS on the way. Temp is ~22C.
Any tips or advice on keeping breeding accepted 🙂
Thanks, once again,
DavidDavid, your fish are extremely interesting. But I doubt that they are P. sumatranus. At least in the male there is always a dark round spot to be seen (see other photos) which is very characteristic. The coclusive marker would be the position in the courtship: both partners stand upright 90 degrees on their tails, which is quite unusual with all Parosphromenus!
Therefore I do believe that your fish are not P. sumatranus. But which species are they? They look very much lime a species/variant that we only had once many years ago: P. spec. Palangan. As Fried Horst Linke told me some months ago all former habitats are destroyed over there. B ythe way, they were situated in Kalimantan, not on Sumatra. But of course, he could not visit them all. And additionally, in Parosphromenus there is always the possibility of a new form that we never saw before.
In any case, do inform us about further developments. Could you receive further sure informations about the origin of your fish?
Please, do write a personal mail to me.
Many thanks, Peter, for your message, and helping to ID these fishes. And surprise that they may be something other than P. sumatranus – they would be interesting enough were they simply sumatranus! I must say that, although the photos fail to capture it, there does appear to be some kind of dark spot or marking on the rear portion of the dorsal fin, but it is fairly indistinct and not as pronounced as some of the classic photos of P. sumatranus show. If I can get a better photo of the male showing that marking, I will post it – it may or may not help with the ID.
Also, I will try to find out more information about the origin of these paros, but they do come from the commercial trade, so not certain if sure information can be given. Either way I’ll give an update here.
Regards,
DavidHere two more larger photos of the male – attempting to show the dorsal marking – more of an extension of the pigments along the dorsal area of the body – a kind of “apostrophe”, rather than a well formed ocelli or spot? Hope this helps with ID and sorry for not so crisp images.
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/LDBn6K.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/913/aXzesZ.jpg[/IMG]The seller got back to me with “no info on the paros other than they came from Indonesia.”
Regards,
DavidYes, the first picture shows a faint indication of that typical round spot at the end of the dorsal. And there is an indication of a further typical marker of the species: a thin black stripe exactly at the borderline between body and anal fin. Compare it with the good photos of sumatranus. There is a third possible marker, too: a comparatively slim body, compared with typical bintan-forms.
Nevertheless, the last information is given by that strange courtship only. Clearly, the final seller is mostly incapable of telling you exact informations. Often, even the exporters cannot do so, because they are not interested in such questions. And if they are, they do not freely spread them: they fear the revealing of goog catching areas to other companies …
Yes, thanks for pointing out the additional characteristics of sumatranus. As the fish I have grow I will try to document any changes in coloration etc. If I am successful in getting them to the point where they breed, It will be interesting to see their courtship behavior, especially if they have the typical sumatranus way. For now I continue to do small water changes with RO water to lower the values to the desired levels. They continue to school around together peacefully and are now feeding on BBS so that is good news. Also, Bill Little got in touch with me and we had a good correspondence.
Here is a photo of the colorful male – I post it here as it shows the caudal fin rays clearly and there appears to be some extension of the middle caudal fin ray(s) which is a characteristic of sumatranus. Perhaps, as yet, not fully grown out but present at this sub-adult stage in any case.
[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/901/Cyqemr.jpg[/IMG]
Fine picture, fine animal, but sumatranus? Not likely. The specifically characteristic big round black spot at the end of the dorsal is missing entirely (mentioned as species-characteristic in the original description) and the black stripe at the border between anal and body is missing, diminishing towards the tail. Nevertheless: very interesting fish, close to former spec. Palangan from Kalimantan Tengah (which is thought to be extinct because of complete destruction of the only habitat known. But ….)
Please, send the picture to me personally at my personal address. I shall forward it to other German experts. And we should discuss it in Hamburg.
Thank you and very interesting indeed. I’ve sent this photo and another to your personal address – these and a prior email to you with some photos attached – so hope you are receiving them? Please use the photos as you like. And, if you have any further info on the P. sp. Palangan, please let me know – such as do any photos of that form exist?
Much appreciated!
This issue develops to a very interesting end, as it seems.
These fish are no sumatranus, but probably something much more rare und little known: The odd P. spec. Palangan from Kalimantan Tengah.
It was found for the first time in 1990 by BAER, NEUGEBAUER and LINKE in the same area as P. parvulus, un te so-called “deer stream” (“Planduk”) at the exit to the village of Palangan on the Sungai Kenyala, near to the Sungai Sampit in Kalimantan Tengah.
Thank you, Peter, for this fascinating information! Given this conclusion, how do you suggest they be referred to? P. sp. Palangan CI 2015 or something similar?
This issue develops to a very interesting end, as it seems.
These fish are no sumatranus, but probably something much more rare und little known: The odd P. spec. Palangan from Kalimantan Tengah.
It was found for the first time by I. Baer, N. Neugebauer and H. Linke in 1990 in the so-called “Planduk” (“deer stream”, famous amond Paro-lovers!) at the end of the village Palangan on the Sungai Kenyala, near to the Sungai Sampit. They lived there in company with Betta foerschi and Betta anabatiodes.
One year later the same species was caught in the area of the village of Pundu in the Sungai Cempaga region. Pundu lies on the road from Palangkaraya through Tangkiling to Kasongan on the Sungai Katinganin. The road runs about further 20 km in westerly direction across the Sungai Cempaga in the Pundu area. The river and the road finally reach Sampit. (Dates thanks to friend Horst Linke). Therefore, this species was for some years known by two names: spec. Palangan and spec. Pundu. But a mistake happened with Pundu: a wrong photo was associated with it showing a fish with a lanceolate tail (spec. Palangan has a rounded caudal fin), and so they were wrongly believed to be separate species.
Even a third name is associated with it: in 2000 our Japanese friends led by Hiroyuki Kishi (“team Borneo”) travelled extensively through Kalimantan in search of new fish, and the found this species in The Parenggean area around 25 km norh of Palangan.So, they called it P. spec. Parenggan.
The fishes live in slowly flowing or even current free blackwater within densely vegetated riparian zones and were extremely difficult to be caught. This explains that it was never vound again up to now. The temperature was 76 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit, the pH 4.6 to 5.5; measured by our Swiss friends Krumenacher and Waser in 1991.
Last year, Horst Linke travelled extensively through Kalimantan Tengah in search of this odd species. But when he arrived at all the three points where it had been found formerly, he saw them completely destroyed: no blackwater anymore. Therefore he concluded that we would see this fish never again.
And now the unexpected happy end. Our friend from the U.S. David Jones (Ekona) realized that there were some strange looking Paros in the tanks of a commercial fish frader. Looking for P. sumatranus, whish he had never seen before, he bought them and made excellent photographs. These fish are definitely not sumatranus, but it is largely probable that they are P. spec. Palangan! I showed the pictures to Horst and he confirmed my suspicion. So, because of the attentiveness and curiosity of our friend it seems that we may have found this species again, named “deissneri” in that commercial tank (of course …). The future will show if we are right.
High compliments to David. Now, we must try to breed them.
A short note on sumatranus: We have sumatranus; they don’t seem to be more endangered than the other species. There are some stocks in Germany. At our meeting in Hamburg they can be seen and probably in small numbers purchased.
Thank you, Peter, for kind comments and for the additional collection information – I have it saved for reference. It was a lucky find! I am very happy for the sake Dr. Link and the other paro keepers (and for the fish themselves) that this form is now known to still be extant. Hopefully there will be success in breeding them within the PP network in the future.
Also the habitat info is useful – and it is the way I have the fish set up, as it turns out. Lot’s of java moss, water of pH 5.5 now – conductivity of ~100µS (could be lower) – no filter=still water, humic substances in the water, temps 23-26C. I separated out one pair into 25cmX25cm of aquarium space with 7 inches deep water. Right now, the female is the boss. They are coexisting fairly peacefully, eating well, but the female chases the male away from time to time – he can hide in the peat fibers and java moss until she calms down. I will keep an eye on the interactions and if more space is needed for the pair, I’ll increase it. So following the advice of the breeders – hopefully with proper water, live foods and correct temps – something good will happen. The commotion of separating the fish has made them very shy now – so probably no good photos until they settle in again.
Glad to hear about the sumatranus being secure in the hobby over there – it is a really interesting species. It would be great to see some good photos of them from the current generations on the forum 🙂
The conductivity could be lowered to about the half; otherwise: good.
I shall see whether there are photos of young P. sumatranus; I think not. The species is somehow more difficult to be portrayed in sharp pictures of high quality than other Paros.You made some good pictures. I just recognised the other topic.
If these fishes are P. sumatranus related, they are almost adult. Young P. sumatranus don´t really have color. They are more like black and brown dotted.We can imagine the black dot in the dorsal fin. But in some photos it is missing. Maybe you have individual fish, or a differnt photo situation?
For me the photos in the other topic are interesting. It seems that the ventral fins and the gill cover are shinig cyan. That would be really differnt.
Nice fish!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.