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Increas­ing UK species base?

  • jalmj
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5 years 2 months ago #3989 by jalmj
Increas­ing UK species base? was cre­ated by jalmj
Being based in the UK, i do not have the same viable access to the wild caught fish that have reli­able iden­ti­fi­ca­tion and loca­tion data, that my Euro­pean friends enjoy through your net­work of pri­vate col­lec­tors and importers. There­fore i have to rely on the fish that turn up in the trade. i can say with con­fi­dence that I have P. Nagyi, P. Linkei and P. Parvu­lus, maybe even P.Phoenicurus (via Ruine­mans), but the pos­i­tive iden­ti­fi­ca­tion of any spec­i­mens from the Bin­tan sub group (includ­ing sp. blue line?, sp. Sen­tang?, sp Dua?) can only ever be best guesses based on pho­tographs and ref­er­ence books.
I do have sup­port­ive LFS’s (Aqual­ife, The Fish Hut, Pier Aquat­ics, Fishcove)who have and will import from SE Asia and/​or Europe for me when Paros appear on their sup­plier lists. How­ever, it would be a use­ful resource if there was a list of all the major Euro­pean Whole­salers who are likely to have wild caught Paros on their lists from time to time. Then i can, hope­fully, watch their pub­lished lists for suit­able fish (NOT those described as Deis­neri !) and encour­age my LFS to import to the UK from them.Any help with the names of likely sup­pli­ers would be greatly appre­ci­ated.
Of course, a more fool­proof way of increas­ing the species avail­able in the UK would be to set up legal chan­nels for import­ing from pri­vate Paro friends in main­land Europe. If i was to make an assump­tion that i would pay all courier and pack­ag­ing fees as well as cost of the fish, and a LFS would use their import license to order from a pri­vate Euro­pean col­lec­tor on my behalf (pre­sum­able for a fee), what addi­tional bur­den would fall on the Euro­pean main­land based pri­vate Paro friend who was will­ing to help me out? Would they need an export licence? How much would one cost?

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5 years 2 months ago #3990 by our­man­flint
Replied by our­man­flint on topic Increas­ing UK species base?
Not a bad idea hav­ing a list of Euro­pean Importers, maybe that should be on this site some­where. Regard­ing Euro­pean imports, I don’t think you need any kind of licence, as that would be cov­ered by Euro­pean trade agree­ment. If its already ben legally imported, then mov­ing them around the Euro­zone should be has­sle and licence free.

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  • Peter Finke
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5 years 2 months ago 5 years 2 months ago #3991 by Peter Finke
Replied by Peter Finke on topic Increas­ing UK species base?
There are some good sug­ges­tions in this mail of Jalmj’s. Let me respond to two of them:

1. Com­mer­cial importers: I sug­gest that read­ers of this Euro­pean forum in the dif­fer­ent coun­tries name the fore­most com­pa­nies that have proved to be reli­able importers of licorice gouramies in their coun­try here in this forum. There are always the same names, but some­times a new one is to be added. I think, the name of the com­pany and the coun­try would suf­fice; every­body can find an internet-​URL him­self. I sug­gest Helene should col­lect those names/​countries and put it into one overview, after some time.

2. Breed­ers in Ger­many: Indeed, we have quite a few good breed­ers in our coun­try with many off­spring of dif­fer­ent species at times. And often there is the prob­lem to get these fish into the hands of good aquar­ists who are con­scious about the spe­cial require­ments of black­wa­ter fish that eat live food only. The ship­ping of these fish is no prob­lem in prin­ci­ple since very small con­tain­ers (f.i. plas­tic bot­tles) suf­fice because they are no per­ma­nently swim­ming fish. A prob­lem is tem­per­a­ture resp. sea­son (cold win­ter! hot sum­mer!) and time (cus­toms! habits of dif­fer­ent ship­ping com­pa­nies!), even within the Euro­pean Union. In other words: Ship­ping within the bor­ders of one con­try is much less risky than transna­tional ship­ping, even within the EU. Some­times there are no prob­lems at all, things go fast, some­times it’s the con­trary. There­fore, the time of the year right now is not the best to have first tries. I sug­gest that we see which com­pa­nies would do such a job and what the costs are. That will need some time and the tem­per­a­tures will rise again. The poten­tial addressees could help by clar­i­fy­ing the cus­toms con­di­tions (espe­cially the time needed) in your coun­try. There maybe no prob­lem at all, but there maybe many prob­lems, too (for exam­ple if declared as “liv­ing ani­mals”, and good com­pa­nies do that).
All part­ners mus be clear about the risks. It is not pos­si­ble to take the breeder/​sender as the only one tak­ing respon­si­bil­ity for that risks.
The costs for such a rel­a­tively reli­able ship­ping accross the bor­ders could be markedly higher than the sim­ple price for the ani­mals. This must be clear to any­body involved. The money must be trans­mit­ted before, but this is much eas­ier now with SEPA-​banking than it was before.
So, there is no oppo­si­tion against ship­ping across the bor­ders in prin­ci­ple. We are gladly will­ing to do this. But there is good and bad expe­ri­ence with the results. Once, the whole things needed two and a half days only form breeder to recip­i­ent, but on sev­eral occa­sions — although it was said to be a quick thing — the par­cel was stored at a border/​at a cus­toms office for a week, and the ani­mals were dead when at last it arrived. Maybe we can min­i­mize that risks by choos­ing spe­cial com­pa­nies and make a fair agree­ment on the risks.

I shall add a last note: We are def­i­nitely will­ing to orga­nize a first inter­na­tional meet­ing of the Parosphromenus-​Project in Sep­tem­ber 2015 in Ham­burg (Ger­many). There will be about ten species avail­able. As soon as details are clear, we pub­lish them here.
Last edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Peter Finke.
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5 years 2 months ago 5 years 2 months ago #3992 by helene
Replied by helene on topic Increas­ing UK species base?
If there is a wish for a list I can make that. I would though like to say that we have here also a link sec­tion. In this there is a cat­e­gory named shops. Theres not a lot of links there yet, — but if I had more I could add these shops to the links. The shops that already is men­tioned on the list are shops which have been reported as hav­ing paros.
I can make a cat­e­gory speci­ficly with links of importers.

I would say to this though, — that even though I have two shops here in Copen­hagen which reg­u­larly have good paros, I have stopped using these. Except for a few times, such as the last import of p.phoenicurus in Ger­many, most of these imports of wild caught paros are uncer­tain iden­ti­ties, or as you men­tion they are p.linkei and p.nagyi (with­out loca­tion)

I per­son­ally rely mainly on fish I aquire through per­sonal con­tacts, and then keep on breed­ing these.

I have before been talk­ing to some­one from UK about this, — and I think it would be really good to make some struc­ture in the project which could help bring more paros with cer­tain iden­ti­fi­ca­tion and loca­tion to UK.
Liv­ing in Den­mark I per­son­ally have a big prob­lem with off spring. I think there may be other indi­vid­u­als in the project around in areas out­side of Ger­many, and indi­vid­u­als who are per­haps not in the cat­e­gory of ‘breed­ers’ — but where the prob­lem still is quite big. And where it would also be really nice if there was help.
Some­how it is really a prob­lem that one is try­ing to help with breed­ing a rare species, — and help­ing by being ‘god­fa­ther’, — but then end up with more and more tanks with too many off­springs.
I do know that if its on a larger scale import we are talk­ing about its not help­ful, but we shouldnt for­get this aspect of pri­vate peo­ple who have too much suc­cess with breed­ing, and who are liv­ing out­side of Ger­many some­times.

How would it be if some­one trav­elled in per­son to UK ? I have heard that it is pos­si­ble to take fish on the plane, packed well in a suit­case. Its only about an hours travel. Just ask­ing :) ?? Dont know if it is possible.
Last edit: 5 years 2 months ago by helene.
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5 years 2 months ago #3993 by Russ Green
Replied by Russ Green on topic Increas­ing UK species base?
I com­pletely agree with jalmj. I would also like to obtain species of Paro with a def­i­nite iden­ti­fi­ca­tion. The most infor­ma­tion we usu­ally get from the LFS is the name of the importer and noth­ing else. As we all know, try­ing to iden­tify stressed and colour­less fish in a LFS aquar­ium is almost impos­si­ble. With­out know­ing any­thing of their ori­gin, it’s a frus­trat­ing sit­u­a­tion.

I recently pur­chased a group of P. Phoeni­cu­rus. They came into the UK at the same time as the pos­i­tively iden­ti­fied fish arrived in Ger­many, they are small as are the Ger­man fish. They also look like the fish in the pho­tos. But as I don’t have any pos­i­tive infor­ma­tion about loca­tion, can I be cer­tain that they are Phoeni­cu­rus?

This is the kind of sit­u­a­tion we end up with, and as I said, its frustrating.

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5 years 2 months ago #3994 by jalmj
Replied by jalmj on topic Increas­ing UK species base?
I think it would be use­ful to the aims of the Project, if the UK based Paro friends who are com­mit­ted to breed­ing and main­tain­ing these lit­tle jew­els, were to form a loose group within the Project, to pro­mote the Project, share infor­ma­tion, and keep an up to date localised cen­sus of the stock held within the UK. This cohort could act as a vir­tual hub for dis­pers­ing sur­plus stock to those new friends attracted to the cause.
We should embrace the imper­a­tive to pro­pogate, and be pre­pared to sell on our fish onto other Paro friends if our own breed­ing attempts with spe­cific species have failed. I have always under­stood that keep these fish and not breed them is con­sump­tion and not preser­va­tion.
Such a dis­tri­b­u­tion hub would ease the intro­duc­tion of paro species with proper iden­ti­fi­ca­tion and loca­tion data into the UK. This could be achieved by the shar­ing of costs in bring­ing fish from main­land Europe into the UK. I agree with Helene by the way, and some basic research under­lines her hunch,that it is much cheaper to get a return flight on a bud­get air­line from Man­ches­ter to Ham­burg (For instance), than it is to pay for a 24hour courier ser­vice.
That link from the main­land to these islands is cru­cial if Stock lev­els of the most endan­gered species are to grow, but also in ensur­ing that the gene pool of indi­vid­ual species, when refreshed, is main­tained in dis­tinct pop­u­la­tions.
The costs of col­lect­ing the fish and return­ing to the UK could be shared by all those in the UK who were reciev­ing these fish. And the fish could be deliv­ered to their new keep­ers via an agreed, cen­tral meeting/​distibution point (eg Motor­way ser­vice sta­tion).
This could work, and i ask all the UK paro friends who are inter­ested in help­ing each other in this way to con­tact me via pri­vate mes­sage.
How­ever, per­haps the biggest dif­fi­culty, is in estab­lish­ing de facto dis­tri­b­u­tion hubs on the main­land. It is rare, i would sus­pect, that any one air­port city has more than one paro friend with sur­plus stock at any given time. So we would need the loca­tions and Paro­Pro­ject mail­box con­tact details of all respon­dents to our Euro­pean wide cen­sus, so that we can map where the sur­plus stock is and, ide­ally, con­gre­gate it around any place that we can access directly from a UK air­port.
I would very much like to attend an inter­na­tional con­ven­tion in Ham­burg (although us British are infa­mously ill equipped in ‘for­eign’ lan­guages!!), but my heart sinks at the prospect of wait­ing ten months to get my eager hands on species such as anjunganensis,alfredi,rubrimontis or quin­decim.

John

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