Forum

Aquafish Northeim: large-​scale order for P. ornat­i­cauda possible

  • chrisne84
  • chrisne84's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Junior Boarder
More
2 years 7 months ago #6041 by chrisne84
Dear Dorothee,
Dear Peter,

I can under­stand doro’s argu­ments about the Stress by trans­porta­tion. But I can’t fol­low at all.

To my mind every paro from com­mer­cial trade had stress from ship­ping to Europe. There­fore it should be the same to fishes which were imported from inter­ested spe­cial­ists. The neg­a­tive point about the com­mer­cial trade with huge num­bers is the fact that most of the fish will die dur­ing fur­ther trans­porta­tion in Europe, in tanks of local deal­ers, because nobody is inter­essted in this fish and the water para­me­ters are wrong, or because of wrong para­me­ters by their pri­vate own­ers dur­ing keep­ing.

In my opin­ion the non-​commercial way is bet­ter to keep alive and breed more fish. Another ques­tion is if there will be more com­mer­cial trades in the future.

The trans­porta­tion between spe­cial­ist in Germany/​Europe is another sit­u­a­tion. How could we get rar fish and their juve­niles to other inter­ested peo­ple who want to keep and breed them? We need trans­porta­tion. Spe­cial meet­ings are the eas­i­est way to exchange species. What about the IGL-​Meetings? I got my Paros from Mar­tin and I’m happy about that chance. Should we stop the “Tauschbörse”? I don’t think so! Trans­porta­tion is nec­es­sary to keep Paros alive in our com­mu­nity.

Yes­ter­day I got con­tact to Indone­sian paro group on Face­book. I’m work­ing on orga­niz­ing a few pairs of wild caught ornat­i­cauda and real deiss­neri from these peo­ple who want to help me/​us. They know the habi­tats, how to catch, keep and trans­portate those fish. If the weather is right they will try.
For me it is a way to get rar species with­out killing hun­dreds of them.

Kind regards
Chris

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

  • 7 Zwerge
  • 7 Zwerge's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Plat­inum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • some P. linkeii juveniles
More
2 years 7 months ago #6042 by 7 Zwerge
Hi Chris,
You under­stood me wrong. Of course our fish must travel, they don’t live in our gar­den ponds.
I just said we should min­i­mize the trav­els for our fish. And of course “fis­chboersen” ( meet­ings to dis­trib­ute fish) are nec­es­sary for us. And some­times we need the trade. And pri­vate imports are bet­ter for the fish than com­mer­cial ones.
I just think we should be aware about our lit­tle fish and their com­fort, and to be aware, if we let them suf­fer for our inten­tions.
And — you haven’t been last year at the Ham­burg meet­ing, haven’t you? There some of us brought some fish from far away , there were some mis­un­der­stand­ings and we brought them back home. Me, I lost the half of them the next months.
When I got the first newslet­ter about the first Ham­burg meet­ing, I pro­posed to add: what species/​how many fish can you bring and what species/​how many fish do you want to bring home with you. I’m not bad in orga­niz­ing, I could have orga­nize that. But nobody thought, that that would be nec­es­sary at that time.….
I hope that this year thes aspects will be optimized.

with best regards,
Dorothee

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

  • chrisne84
  • chrisne84's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Junior Boarder
More
2 years 7 months ago #6043 by chrisne84
As I told you I got con­tact to Indone­sian paro group. Today in morn­ing I got the mes­sage that “Henry” (a mem­ber and col­lec­tor) got 10 pairs of real deiss­neri he orga­nized for me/​us and will keep them well till ornat­i­cauda is col­lec­table.
Then he will orga­nize trans­port to Ger­many. The fol­low­ing photo shows the col­lected fish.


Kind regards
Chris
Attachments:

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

  • Peter Finke
  • Peter Finke's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • pub­lic under­stand­ing of science“
More
2 years 7 months ago 2 years 7 months ago #6044 by Peter Finke
This is a very strange post­ing. It’s again about a “large scale order” for P. ornat­i­cauda, that until now always has ended with hun­dreds of dead fish. But the strangest thing is that it men­tions 10 pairs of true P. deiss­neri that an Indone­sian “col­lec­tor” has “orga­nized” wait­ing for ornat­i­cauda; the pic­ture seems to show that species that has been never traded before.

I am very upset about this. P. deiss­neri is endemic on the island of Bangka only and, as we know per­son­ally by the joint expe­di­tion of the Chi­nese expert Went­ian Shi and the Japan­ese expert Hiroyuki Kishi some months ago is left at one small place only in small num­bers. All other known loca­tions of that species have been com­pletely dried and destroyed for the plague of new palm-​oil-​plantations.

The P-​P can­not sup­port any activ­i­ties of “col­lec­tors” who engage in includ­ing a species left in min­i­mum num­bers at a sin­gle place only into that trade busi­ness of pure fish keep­ing. Announc­ing that collector-​activity here is not meet­ing the men­tal­ity and spirit of the P-​P. As an admin­is­tra­tor of this forum I still hes­i­tate to take stronger mea­sures, but they per­haps maybe nec­es­sary.

True deiss­neri are present in Ger­many at two places with good breed­ers. There is no need to expoit the frag­ile source commercially!
Last edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Peter Finke.

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

  • chrisne84
  • chrisne84's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Junior Boarder
More
2 years 7 months ago #6045 by chrisne84
I’m sorry but I feel really mis­un­der­stood now.

I quit the idea of import­ing a huge num­ber of ornat­i­cauda because of the argu­ments and expe­ri­ences you men­tioned.

To my mind another way could be to con­tact peo­ple who are inter­ested in Paros like us and live near their habi­tats.
There­fore some days ago I con­tacted the Indone­sian Paro group on Face­book. This peo­ple are spe­cial­ized hob­by­ists like us who dis­cuss about the same prob­lems of envi­ron­men­tal destroy­ing, want to save and breed rar Paros (betta too) and are not inter­ested in com­mer­cial trade for this fishes.
They know the habi­tats because they have been there and know about the dan­ger of loos­ing this species. They are also search­ing for loca­tions were rar species sur­vived, for exam­ple deiss­neri.
They don’t want to give this fish to unskilled peo­ple.

I asked if they could help to orga­nize rar species like ornat­i­cauda and deiss­neri in small! num­bers for per­sonal import, because the last cen­sus shows off that we don’t have much fish of this species.
For me it had noth­ing to do with com­mer­cial trade of rar species like deiss­neri!
That we have 2 suc­cess­ful breed­ing pop­u­la­tion of deiss­neri i didn’t know till to this day.

So yes­ter­day I got the mes­sage includ­ing the pic­ture that a mem­ber of this group cap­tured some pairs of deiss­neri to “help us”. They orga­nized really fast. Of course I was sur­prised about it and didn’t know how to react.
I shared this news with PP because for me it seems to be a good way.
Now I rec­og­nize that my effort is noticed as wrong act­ing of me by the PP. That’s why I feel mis­un­der­stood.
It is not my aim to import any paro for com­mer­cial trade, of course espe­cially not rar species like deiss­neri!

To my mind it’s not repro­ducible what dif­fer­ence exist between the sit­u­a­tion that a Euro­pean who loves this fish goes there to get to know the envi­ron­ment of this fish, cap­ture some by him­self and trans­port them home for breed­ing and sav­ing or if a local with the same knowl­edge about this species cap­tures them and help to ship them to Europe. The stress dur­ing trans­port should be nearly the same.
In both sit­u­a­tions hun­dreds of fish don’t have to die because of bad cir­cum­stances dur­ing com­mer­cial trade. Of course there is dan­ger that they die dur­ing per­sonal import.

I will try to import them by myself with the help of the Indone­sian paro group.
I hope I will get liv­ing fish to breed and give them to inter­ested mem­bers of the PP. if there are inter­ested peo­ple…

I hope that I was able to explain my point of view.

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

  • Peter Finke
  • Peter Finke's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • pub­lic under­stand­ing of science“
More
2 years 7 months ago 2 years 7 months ago #6046 by Peter Finke
Chris, there is no doubt about your per­sonal motives and about the per­sonal motives of many peo­ple in the Indone­sian group. We know some of them per­son­ally.

The ques­tion is about the fac­tual effect, the col­lat­eral dam­ages of spread­ing such news. I think it was good that you clar­i­fied your posi­tion. That will help us to draw the bor­der­line cor­rectly. The spirit of the P-​P is to reduce the com­mer­cial exploita­tion of the mean­while very few intact biotopes of our fish. This is dif­fi­cult, I know, but nec­es­sary. We must improve breed­ing and strive at get­ting rid of the “help” of the trade. We still are rather far away from this, of course.

Horst Linke has got a pair of deiss­neri from the re-​discoverer Went­ian Shi, the other pairs stay with him. There are other fish which we don’t speak about. We are in con­stant con­tact with the aim of prepar­ing use­ful steps with the help of an inter­na­tional orga­ni­za­tion. Let’s be quiet now; it will be the best for our fish.
Last edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Peter Finke.

Please Log in or Cre­ate an account to join the conversation.

Mod­er­a­tors: helene
Time to cre­ate page: 2.995 seconds
X

Right Click is Disabled

Please respect our image usage rights and do not copy the images found on this web­site with­out prior per­mis­sion. Thank You — The Parosphromenus Project Staff