- This topic has 17 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 9 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Is anyone trading Paros in The Netherlands? My lfs sells some as “deissneri”(from wich I bought a pair(I’m not quite sure about it being true deissneri or anjunganensis)), but I’m thinking of keeping other Paro species as well. The only thing is I don’t know where to get them. Does anyone in The Netherlands breed them?
Dear “bartian”, please write a personal mail to me, mailto: peter.finke@t-online.de
I shall try to help you. In it, please tell me your name and living place.
(It would be easier if you logged-in here; then we would have your mail-address and could write to you directly).I did log in actually, otherwise I could not have made this topic. Thanks for your reply, I edited my profile so my residence is visible now.
Hi Bartian,
I don´t know what tips or contacts you got from Peter but I
can name you two possible sources. But the best will be to get them
from a private breeder and I guess Peter knows best where to ask.Rifwachter in Hilversum had once P. nagyi when I was there so maybe they have sometimes
Parosphromenus.
On the dutch Labyrintvissen Forum is a guy called Armin who offered
Parosphromenus from a wholesaler. If you check there Soorten aangeboden you can find his
contact information.groetjes
VolkerHi, Bartian
I live in northern France, in Douai, near Lille/Rijsel and from Belgium, and i go from time to time to the netherlands.
I have now a number of young p. LINKEI and I am seeking someone who is interested.
I am traveling through Netherlands direction german friesland at 27 december. grosso modo from Breda naar winschoten. Perhaps we could see us on the highway, at a precise time, because I cannot wait. I must be at 19h00 in Nordfriesland
I can bring my fishes but I can’t receive fishes, because I am 8 days on the road afterthat.
So, it depends where you are in the netherlands.Hugues
hallo again!
I see you are in Amersfoort. I will be driving near Amersfoort on the highway A28, coming from direction Breda / Utrecht and going farther to the E37 / E233 (Hogeveen).
Hugues
That would be great :woohoo: ! At what time do you expect to pass Amersfoort? I’ll ask if I can get a day off.
How many do you have left?EDIT: I got a day off then.
Hugues helps Bartian: a wonderful example of how useful the forum may be! Help accross the countries’ borders. We are bad in that, still. Our network in Germany works realtively good, perhaps in Denmark or Sweden too. Even with sending fish by post-parcel. But we are still bad in sending privately grown fish across borders. Has anyone an idea? Has anyone experience with privately sending fish by post-parcel across country-borders in Europe? What about customs? How long will it take (how many days) to arrive? There are many requests to our German breeders for sending fish to -say- France or Italy or Poland. Has anyone done this already? It must be possible.
Not always fate is lucky as here in the case of Hugues ans Bartian.Maybe someone could try to send a few less sensitive fishes, like guppy’s, to try if it is possible for fish to survive being sent with post-parcel? I am willing to try it, if someone can tell me how to pack it.
Hi,
I know that in the killifish scene some people send fishes with the post.
I had a bad experience right the first time I received fishes. Except of one
all were dead. It took 8 days from the middle of Germany to Stockholm and the
weather was changing to very hot in this time.
That was for me the first and last time buying fishes this way and I don´t wanna
give it a try to send fishes myself.
But I know also succesful examples were people received fishes from Spain or France
to Sweden without problems.
All in all I would say there is always a risk of losing the fish.But what about using other networks. There are for example every year a lot of meetings in whole
Europe by other groups (killifish, betta breeders, dart frogs,reptiles, big fairs…).
Maybe we don´t share the interest for the same animals but we share at least the interest for the same kind of hobby and a lot of people come around in the world. Most of this groups have special forums where you can ask.I asked myself a lot if you can take fishes with you in the luggage if you fly within Europe for example. Let´s say you put them well packed in a styrofoambox in your suitcase.
Is there any trouble waiting at the airport?The issue is not of solely European importance, therefore we should talk about it in a general manner in the “global” section. But certainly: as the European aspects are concerned, we have that problem here in all its facets, of course: Many country-borders in all directions, different posting companies, and in spite of the European market still different customs traditions. And different languages, of course.
The main problem we have is time. A journey exceeding three or (maximum) four days will simply be too long even for licirice gouramis. For, these fish stand being sent via post-parcel better than all other fish, certainly better than guppies. There are three preconditions, of course:
(1) The sender may not make any severe mistake (see below), (2) the fish should be in good conditions, and (3) the journey should not exceed three days at the most. Let me explain this:– Licorice gouramis are labyrinths. In normal aquarium care they don’t use their labyrinth at all. But that organ is well developed and will be used instantly if conditions deteriorate. Therefore, we have nearly no problem with oxygen.
– But: There are fish that are used to swim around and others that are rather quietly staying at one place. Even many labyrinths belong to the former category. Licorice belong to the latter. All fish of the first category are less safe to be sent than those of the quiet group.
– Licorice are the most quiet fish we know. If sent in a small dark amount of water with one or two old beech or oak leaves in it, they will “sit” below a leaf and stay there and don’t move. The best a fish can do in that situation.
– Licorice are no high-temperature fish but as members of the often cooler (because shadier) rainforest biotopes they stand a certain decline of temperatures better than the opposite.
– Licorice are used to very small home ranges. They can be bred in 10-liter-tanks (Allan Brown used 5-liter-tanks!) and do not show any signs of discomfort. Of course, a small group of these fish should normally be given more space to battle at the borders of their cave-quarters and lokk for alternatives. But one pair is totally content with a very small place.Of course, one has to avoid heavy mistakes. The most dangerous is no care against very deep temperatures. Temperature falling below 16 degrees Celsius is the biggest danger at a too-long journey. A styopore box must have thick walls, but that does not suffice. In case of very deep temperatures one has to use heat packs with care. This requires experience. Therefore, in the cold season the problems are great. In the warm season they are much less great. Another heavy mistake is putting too many fish in one bag. Generally one should avoid the normal fish bags and prefer containers with hard walls. The best is sending the fish singly in small plastic bottles or plastic containers with screwing top. They can be very small indeed: 300 milliliter, half-grown even a bit smaller, the bigger 500 milliliter are sufficient (for one fish!).
This are all things that can be learned and the mistakes avoided. Given this as precondition, licorice gouramis are the best fish to be sent by post-parcel. Then, if the journey lasts not for longer than two days, they will safely arrive. Karen Koomams often sent licorice from the Netherlands to Sweden oder received fish from Finland (there was an anjunganensis specialist). The journeys often took three days an dit was no problem. Once it took five days and it was no problem. But this is risky, of course. Too long journeys with incalculable stops at the customs or companies that throw the parcels and repack it several times and store it too cold or too hot: That’s not advisable, and that’s the problem. Not the sort of package or the precautions that the sender can learn.
We have many experience with one or two day sendings in Germany. Licorice gouramis stand this much better than any other fish (except killi-fish eggs, not the fish: the eggs!) for the reasons named. Guppies are much more fastidious (Bartian!). The problem is the mistakes that the sennder should avoid and the incalculable length of journeys within a continent with many borders. We have too little experience with this. Within the borders of the Eurpean union and the Maastricht zone customs should no longer be a problem. But is that true in practice?
Certainly, the meetings of associations are very good opportunities to exchange fish. At the IGL- or EAC-meetings in Germany there are private exchange markets mostly with several licorice species. But this does not solve our problem. You have to travel for more or less long distances yourself and that’s expensive. You can do that in some cases, but many can’t do it. Therefore sending Paros with post-parcel is a serious alternative, if … well, if the preconditions are to be fulfilled. If not, it should be avoided, of course.
I live in what we call the Tampa Bay area of Florida. It is the City of Tampa and the surrounding area and is home to the largest collection of fish farms in the USA. If you are watching the planes being loaded at our large local airport you will see huge numbers of boxes being loaded on the aircraft all marked “Contains Live Tropical Fish”. I have visited a number of the farms and watched the packing and shipping preparation procedures. It is a very interesting operation but is far from the type of operation we are discussing in shipping Licorice Gouramis.
However, I have a friend that maintains a small hatchery that breeds several varieties of Discus and Rams. He ships them all over the country and in some cases around the world very successfully. He utilizes what is called “Breathing Bags” which I will describe in more detail below. The bag material comes in a roll and he makes bags that are 10 x 15 cm. He places a single Discus in the bag with a small amount of water and a couple of drops of a liquid tranquilizer or sedative to calm the fish. He then seals the one remaining open side of the bag. The bag in then placed vertically in a small Styrofoam container. These containers are used to ship medicines for the most part. He can place as many as ten bags in this small container. Each bag is wrapped in paper and a cardboard spacer is placed between each bag. If the container is going to an area where it may be chilly, a heat pack in place in the top of the container separated from the bags of fish with another piece of cardboard. Paper is then stuffed in the top of the container to limit the amount of movement while in transit. The final step is to place the small styro container in a cardboard box which is manufacturered specifically to hold this container. The only thing remaining is to address the box and take it to the post office. He attempts to ship all fish either next day or two day, but some fish have taken as long as 7 days with the fish arriving is good condition. This post has become longer than anticipated so I will describe the “Breathing Bags” in an additional post.The “Breathing Bags” allow the transfer of simple and complex gas molecules through the plastic wall of the bag — carbon dioxide and oxygen in particular. A true “breathing” bag can be utilized in place of a “barrier” bag as is used in plastic polyethylene bags. Carbon dioxide exits the bags at 4 times the rate oxygen enters the bags, thereby constantly purging the water of toxic carbon dioxide, and allowing oxygen to replace it in the water.
Breathing bags can be sealed using all of the current methods: rubber bands, twist ties, metal clips, etc. An even better way for fast efficient sealing is with a bar type heat sealer. The plastic used in the “Breathing Bags” readily seals with heat. Heat sealing can be done much more quickly than other methods and greatly increases the speed with which bags can be handled and sealed. The breathing bag material is manufacturered by Kordon. The bags are manufacturered in several sizes or in a roll. I don’t know if the material is available outside the USA. If you wish more information on the Styrofoam containers I will post that information later.I am very grateful that you described that breathing bags, Bill. And not only the bags, but also the manner to use them and the “normality” of fish-shipping in a large country as the U.S. I hoped that somebody would do that, since the problem discussed here is not only a problem of Europe.
But I want to add two things: First, in Europe we have different countries with different posting systems. And there is some sort of customs control in spite of all political agreements to leave that aside. I don’t know what happens if the content is described as “live fish”. That means, shipments could take a day or two or three days more. Anyway, if packed intelligently (as you described it), there will be no real danger. Especially for Paros which can be shipped safer than any other fish for the reasons I described.
And that is my second remark: Breathing bags are certainly a good thing (we can get them here too), but the advantage is really good with other fish that breathe a lot, that like to move, that are bigger, that depend fully on their gill-breathing. Our licorice gouramis are just ideal fish for being sent via parcel: they are small, they don’t hate darkness, they don’t swim very much, they creep under a leave and stay quiet and don’t move, they don’t like high temperatures and they are used to very small water space. It’s another thing if you are a commercial import company; then you must pack a hundred fish in a big bag; that’s a different situation. But if you are an aquarist ordering two pairs of the offpring from a private breeder or if you are that breeder asked to ship two pairs of licorice to a private address, then you can see things differently. Many European breeders ship their fish singly or in pairs in very small plastic bottles, several within one parcel. The advantage is the firm wall of the bottles; there could hardly be any accident. With the licorice you don’t really need the advantages of the breathing bags; that will only pay out with the trading in big numbers or with other fish.When I, some years ago, received fisk from Karen Koomans, – they were send with the company UPS.
I know it still excists, and I know its quite expensive, but its also quite safe, because its delivered from door to door.
I am not sure however, if you then have to not say what the packet contains, – I dont know about their rules for transport of live animal.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.