Disaster in my tank

[Ryan P]

Hi everyone,

I live on the east coast of the US, and ever since we had the hurricane hit last month, the tank hasn’t been the same. I lost power for some time, and I tried to keep the temperature up as best I could but it was stressful on the fish I’m sure. I keep licorice gouramis and chocolate gouramis in the tank together. 2 chocolates developed popeye and what looked like columnaris shortly afterwards. I decided to treat the tank with 2 maracyn products which have always worked in the past. In fact, the instructions say to do this. This time something different happened. What, I do not know.

30 hours after first treatment the tank was so cloudy I could barely see the fish. They were gasping for air, trying to jump out of the tank. I found one licorice gourami twirling around. So I put him in a different tank immediately and after a few hours he was ok. So I immediately did many water changes (tank ph was probably around 5.5, but I didn’t have enough of that acidic water to replace and had to use well water ph of 7.5 and very hard). That alone probably shocked the fish. I did 4 50% water changes over a day.

Needless to say, that was a day ago. So here is my question. The licorice gouramis now look to be better. They are eating…However, one of them has very clamped caudal fin so as the pectoral fins move, he rocks forward and backward, very lethargic looking. Infact, all of the chocolate gouramis are doing the same, their eyes cloudy, fins clamped making jerky type motions. Caudal fins are motionless. I don’t know what to call this, almost looks like the tail end is paralyzed. Their scales look burnt, maybe the slime coat is gone? They look terrible. The licorice gouramis colored up, but some seem to dart alot when they get scared. Is this a bacteria doing this, or did the medication burn them? Second question, do I medicate with a different medicine, or are the scales/skin too sensitive at this point? If there is some bacteria taking hold of these fish, I want to curb it immediately. Should I use salts? I do have plants in the tank. Any help appreciated.

Ryan

[helene schoubye]

I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I am not sure I can help in all questions at all, but I can offer a few thoughts.

As for the paros it sounds encouraging that most of them are eating and looking better. For the one that is not looking well, it is not easy to say what it could be. My experience with licorice gouramies is that they are not so prone to diseases, but odinium is something which can affect them. Of course other conditions as well, or reactions to too much stress and changes in waterconditions.
The clamping of the caudal fin in the chokolates and the one paro too me is probably just a sign of unwell being, – as far as I remember, chokolates really do this when not feeling good (totally folded caudal fin) – but the jerkyness might indicate that there is something really bothering their skin condition as you yourself also think. With the paros I would think that the change in water chemistry is mainly responsible for this, – however I would look carefully after whether they develop odinium. (Which is not uncurable with licorice gouramies if you have the right medication)

As far as I know, medication used in low ph water works much stronger, – and normally you should half the dosis. Maybe you did that already ? But I always think that medication in low ph and low conductivity water is unpredictable really, so I almost never use it. Only medication I do use is spirohexol tablets (works extremely well with paros with odinium).

[helene schoubye]

I can tell you what I would do – I would really very fast get back some normal low microsiemens and low ph water, put in whatever you have of ketapang leaves or oak leaves, or even you can get some stuff in bottles which actually does the same (not extracts which lowers the ph, but other kinds), and then I would give the paroes (and probably the chokolates as well) higher temperature for a while.
I have used temperatures at 28 with paros that I was worried about, and they normally respond really well to that.

I would not at all use any more medication (with the paros). Not unless I was definitely sure there was a positive sign of illness, and a sign I was able to diagnose correctly. Otherwise, if one fish continues to get worse, I would isolate it and see what happened. Because, normally, a sick fish with an uncertain diagnose, – you have to have a strike of luck to cure that, and most often you will end up making more disaster to the whole tank by adding more medication. Medication is really not that easy to handle, mostly it ends up having worse effects than good ones.
And most of the times, – a very sich fish is uncurable anyway. This is not to say that you shouldnt try to save any precious fish, but I am afraid that is my experience. Then rather take care that the rest of the fish, if looking well, do not suffer any by-effects of medication.

But I have said it one other time here, and will say again – always keep one of those small bottles with spirohexol, they work really well with sick paros. I had a tank with 3 fish, – they developed some kind of odinium, very heavy attack, and one of them was really bad, and I had really given up on it. But one tablet of spirohexol + one week, they all recovered.
Oh, and dont use salt.
This is my personal opinion, I have no experience with it, never used it, – and would really think it is contradictionary to the waterconditions that paros demand.

One question : are they all still in the same tank ??

As for the clouding of the tank, and the fishes starting gasping and wanting to jump out, seems like the medication have sparked an unwanted chemical reaction, – so some kind of intoxication may be what has happened with your fish ?

[Ryan P]

Thank you. How can I diagnose odinium. The chocolates have maybe something whitish or grayish on then and the eyes covered in gray film, but i attributed that to the chemical reaction. 1 chocolate died and his scales were very brittle and hard.

I am affraid to net them as the paros go crazy when they see the net and I’m affraid they will get hurt. But i will try to take it out of the tank. Temperature is 82f, it was 86 when all this happened. I will try to get acidic water back into the tank.

[helene schoubye]

how big is the tank ?

Odinium is like a very very fine grey dust on the skin. If developed you might see small dust particles on the pectorial fins or any fin really, – you might see the fish wawe those pectoral fins (not sure about the english name to them, but those on the side :)) more than usual.

Yeah, caching paros can be a nightmare, which is probably why I wouldnt keep them in a bigger tank with other fish 🙂
But, – if I have to catch any paro, what I would do, – if serious – I would slowly rid the whole tank of everything. Just take it up slowly (look for any paro trying to stick to the wood or something.) But if you do it slowly, over one day say, – and leave the tank to settle, so you can see.
Then you can spot the paros, and target them more easily :). If you can get them up to the front glass, its easier to get the net over them, holding the net up against the glass. I know they dart around like … – but normally they do not get hurt.
Once you have a fish in the net (up against the front glass) you can use a little tortlamp to get the paro to move to the back of the net. They dont seem to like the light so they seek inwards).

Thats pretty easy :S

[helene schoubye]

But again, actually. I know its difficult, because one wants to do all one can to help, – but if you are not certain about whether the fish actually have any condition – odinium – or such, wait untill you are certain.
Dont start medicating before the signs are really there.

Often the best cure really is to let the fish regain peace and quiet

[Ryan P]

Helene,

Tank is 40 gallons.

I noticed when i first brought the ph down the paros colored up a lot but the chocolates hid. Perhaps they were already sick.

I noticed through all this that the new paros i have, the ones that are probably the un-named species of filamentosus are MUCH more delicate than the others i have ( blue line).

I have had them 2 weeks now and they are developing a very dark color accented with emerald green on the edges and in the fins. I believe even the female with rounded clear fins has started to develop an emerald border. The caudal is starting now to grow out the filament. Pictures to follow.
Thanks
Ryan

[helene schoubye]

:blink: 40 gallons..
I think I am glad I dont have to catch your paros in there, – that is a real problem. So best thing probably to not.
Or if you need to, you will have to have a lot of patience. I am sure that when, as I, you have caught a lot of paros, it actually is possible, even they fly around, – to get them trapped somehow at the frontglas and put a net over them, – but in such a big tank, I think it must be really difficult.

If those new ones you got, are wildcaught, that also means that they must have gone through a lot of changes and travel lately, which would make them more delicate.
I often find with paros that I buy wildcaught, – are ‘delicate’, but I alway put that down to stress from the journey and changes in conditions. I often think that I have quite many losses with those fish. But those that settle seem as tough as the ones that have been breed.

[Ryan P]

This is what I see in the tank. I think I see the same “grayness” on the licorice gourami with close fins. But I see it the worst on this chocolate. Does that look like bacterial spreading, or is that would you think damage from the chemical reaction? If it is bacterial, I would like to treat before it spreads but I don’t want to hurt the fish more.

[helene schoubye]

It might be a bit like it, yes. But its hard to tell, – the paros in the tank dont look too bad as far as I can see.

But the chocolate doesnt look happy at all. And it does have like a grey shimmer to it. Chocolates though are really sensitive, and if stressed they can look so awful. This one at least has some colours. But they are delicate fish.

I think I would leave the tank in peace for a while, and try and stable the waterparameters again, have a good temperature, – and then observe if they get worse. Maybe see if you can find some spirohexol in the meantime.
Odinium if so, will not kill the fish just like that, – it develops kind of slowly. But I only know it with paros, not chocolates.

I will have to log out here .. getting midnight here in Denmark, but hope it works out for you.

One last thing, – theres a lot of light on the tank, – the paros probably will live with it, the chocolates might get more stressed from it, I think.

[helene schoubye]

I actually dont think it looks too bad in terms of odinium at this stage. I agree the chocolate gourami looks in a bad shape, but if this is something else is hard to say.

The paros doesnt seem too affected, – saying this of course from behind a computer screen pretty far away from your ‘real’ world.
Again, one word, from my experience with paros, – I have had paros in tanks with other species of fishes that had illnesses, – and most of the time it did not affect the paros for some reason. I have had ick actually on boraras, it did not spread to the paros, – no idea why.
So sometimes one needs not panic.

[bartian]

That is quite serious. Do they sell Sera over there? Baktopur would treat it, maybe you can find something like that?

I have never had diseased paros. The boraras I kept with them one time had whte spot and later died of fungus, but the paros never had any symptoms. One time in an other tank, when some peat I put under the sand for the cryptos, started rotting I lost some Betta, but when I changed a lot of water the paros were more coloured than ever and even starded courting. Although they won’t come in contact with these in nature they seem to have an excellent immune system.

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Are you using RO water or distilled? Since the Hurricane they may have added other or stronger chemicals to prevent polution of drinking water. Severe storms like the Hurricane can easily wreak havoc on our water supplies, Wells included. Keep a close eye on you parameters as fish like paros probably thrive on stability of the enviroment.

Call your water company and ask if they have done anything different since the storm.

I too am on the East Coast but stay in touch with our water company whenever we have a weather crisis.

From the reading I have done so far 86f temperature might be pushing it for paros?

[Ryan P]

Temperature now at 82 since yesterday. I was using RO water with a buffer from seachem to make it 5.0 ph. Some chocolates looking better but don’t know if they ate yet. The paros are eating nicely. I believe 2 of the 12 have closed fins as of yesterday. I don’t believe number is growing.

My well is in my back yard, 200 feet in the ground.

Tomorrow i plan on draining tank to 10 gallons ( now at 7.4 ph) and slowly add back 5.0 ph RO water.

I know I’ve read the ph for paros can go even to the 4.0 area, but what should my constant target be?

I’ve also seen a lot about conductivity. Can someone explain that to me and what i need to measure it?

[Ted L. Dutcher]

I would suggest that you get a TDS meter (they are not too expensive). I did experiment with some pH down products but so far have found that they increase the TDS.

I am targeting a pH of 5.5 for now and a TDS of 12 or less (hopefully).
Anything below 6 pH is recommended.

If you are getting 5.0 RO water you are fine. Be very slow to add to the tank if you are at 7.4 Take a week or 2 to slowly mix. The fish will be fine with slow changes.

The whole point of low pH appears to be achieving a very low bacterial count, as these fish have not evolved with a great deal of resistance to disease.

Sorry, I would also like to add that it is also very important (low pH and TDS) for successful spawning of the paros. That is why we are here… not to just have them, but have successful spawning to prevent likely extinctions.

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