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I’d like to start a discussion on the following article:
Are there any measurments of water temperature throughout the year? How does it change in Indonesia?
Any thoughts on article?
I hope there will be time to respond in detail to this interesting article. But at present there is not. Therefore only a short commentary:
1. The most important thing seems to me that temperature is not the main problem for Parosphromenus-aquaristics. It may be for Discus (rather warm) or some Dario (rather cold) but I know of successfull breeding of Paros at different temperature-levels. I do not differentiate between keeeping and breeding. Breeding is the decisive test. Myself I have no heater in any of my small tanks. But the room temperature is in one case elevated to 23-24 degrees Celsius, in another to 2o-21. Good breeder friends artiiculate different experiences with temperature. The pioneer W. Foersch had no heater in all his tanks (varying 19-24 degrees Celsius), today the specialist M. Hallmann advocates higher temperatures (up to 27/28 degrees Celsius) than he did formerly. His argument is that such higher temperatures are measured at most locations in Indonesia and Malaysia presently. My opinion on this is that most present locations are more or less heavily disturbed, not natural any longer, with mostly missing rain-forest. Therefore, the influence of the sun is greater than at the unspoiled habitats.
2. Although the article is doubtlessly interesting and further discussion will be rewarding, it is (for our purposes) too general in my opinion. There are no thoughts on blackwater aquaristics and its specialities that make a difference to what 95% of the standard recommendations say. Nevertheless, the conclusion is similar. The author says: A stable temperature is non-natural; he is right. He says: Fish kept at lower temperatures live longer and are less prone to diseases; he is right if they are kept within their temperature tolerance – and this is bigger than often written and thought. But his conclusion “Keep fish at lower temperatures” is – to my opinion – wrong. It is too much generalized. And as Paros are concerned I should say more precisely: We have some problems (to care for a low germ level, to keep calcium out of the water, to maintain a rather stable pH, to feed them properly, avoiding Oodinium is a major problem, too) but temperature is not the problem with them. You can be successful at different levels.
Ok I understand, but is there an info on how low can it get in case of Paros? Are there any measurments to determine how water temperature changes throughout the year?
In my other topic You said that Paros breeding seson started few weeks ago. Due to what? What was the trigger? Presumably temperature, but how does it change? It drops? It goes up? Artices linked to the site state, that water is cooler, becouse it comes from he ground. Is the temperature somewhat stable? Are there any significant variations daily, annualy?In case of Oodinium, I found some unconfirmed info, that Oodinium is seen in heated aquaria, and is rarely seen in aquaria with the lower temperature.
And last question. Are there any tests to show the productability of the female when bred extensively, in lower temperatures with visible breedeing season, as oposed to the classic and alredy known method?
Sorry for the flood of questions.
Hello, my experience have probably no relations with temperature, but when I breed my paros in my “old” house when temp. was about 26-27 C. I always had about 15 pcs of fry. But when I breed them in my new house when temp. is about 22C (I don’t use a heater in aquarium) I had 30+ fry . Water is the same like before, food also – but previously I didn’t leave male with eggs and larvae – this time I did. So, probable it is more related to the male care then temperature..:) Greetings!
Sverting: a flood of questions, but of good questions. Mainly of questions that I am unable to answer. But I am rather sure that there are no tests comparing the productivity of females kept at different levels of temperature. “Test” is a strong word. There are nearly no “tests” of many aquarium problems, only experience. Many people exaggerate their own experience to general laws, and that’s a mistake. No, I know of no tests.
As Oodinium is concerned it’s obviously a serious problem of (not only, but mainly) softwater fish. Again, I don’t know whether the relation you mentioned is proved by a enough and sound experience.
Your other question regarding temperature are very interesting indeed, but there is little waht could serioulsy be called “knowledge”. Most expeditions measure temperature, but that are accidental values at accidental times. Probably there are measuring series in other contexts; it would be very helpful imdeed if somebody could advise us on that. I can’t.
But the last thing. My remark on the beginning breeding season did not in the first line refer to temperature but to rainfall. This, the beginning seasonal monsoon raining season, is the triggering factor you are searching for. This is related to changes in temperature, too, mainly dropping temperature, but the main thing is something else: the further reduction of dissolved minerals in the water, that are markedly “thinned out”, and the corresponding increase of solved organic materials. And this again results in a strong increase in microorganism-life which is he food basis for the young fish. Such are the main triggers in the beginning breeding season. Temperature is one factor among others but is probably less important. If so, more by dropping than by rising temperatures. Insofar you are right again.
I started digging a bit and got to some interesting info on the monsoon and the climate in Indonesia in general.
I used mainly Polish sites, but nevertheless I’ll give them for refernce:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_season
http://www.transazja.pl/pl24/dane_klimatyczne/id/Indonesia/Jakarta/temperatura,opady
http://pl.allmetsat.com/klimat/singapur.php?code=48698and info about Thailand for comparison:
http://pl.allmetsat.com/klimat/azja.php?code=48456
http://www.tajlandiaprzewodnik.pl/pogodaWhat stikes me first is the fact, that there os actually only one monsoon season in Indonesia, while Thailand has two precipitation spikes. Since we are interested in Indonesia much more than in Thailand, I will drop the topic of the latter.
What we see next. The avarege temperature of the air is, more or less, constant and equals 27-28 degrees Celcius. But the interesting fact is that the amplitude of temperature varies greatly througout the year, with the smallest amplitude during the wet season in January, (33 max, 22 min), followed by moderate differnces till June, when the difference rises (35 max, 21 min) to reach the biggest difference in October (39 max, 16 min).
As to the rain. Having comparede the differences on the Borneo and in Singapure I can say, that the month with the heaviest rainfall is always January, and the most dry month is the June and/or July.
Here I’d like to state a thesis. Although the primary trigger is most probably the shortage of dissolved material, followed by the stabilisation of temperature and the land getting less sunligh.
I think that it is safe to assume, that water temperature measurments are taken during the daylight, so the recorded temperature is probably the peak temperature or maybe 1 degree Celcius lower. Now here’s the temperature chart for Jakarta:
http://www.panstwaswiata.pl/indonezja/pogoda/
The temperature varies from 3 to 5 degrees between night and day. Now let’s compare it to the annual chart, which in fact shows us, that the difference between avarege max and min temperature equals 4 degrees. This made me think. If it is so with this month, it should be probably the same with others. So I checked some meteograms, and charts, and found notes about weather on Bali in October
The difference is visible. 31 to 23 makes an 8 degree change. Usually, the recomended difference between night and day temperatures are between 2-3 degrees Celcius.
With that in mind I think, that simulating the change could effect in less spawns but of a grater calliber, with more eggs and therefore fishes. I’am not sure of it of course, but I intend to simulate the difference with a heat controller allowing to set day and night temperatures.
I think, that goal would be to make changes during the year: (Day/Night)
24/22 December, January
24/21 February, March
25/20 April, June, July, August
24/21 September, NovemberAccompanied with smaller water changes in summer and more frequent in winter.
The post might be a little chaotic, but the general idea should be visible. Most of my fish are young (about a year or so), so there is some time till the first spawning, but it might be interesting too see if the spawnings would start in the January 2014.
I’ll let You know how the experiment is going.
Very good, let’ s see what comes out. Certainly, those temperature measurements of the fish catchers were all taken in daylight.
We must bear in mind, however, that Parosphromenus live in streaming waters, not in stagnant waters. That means probably a little more stability as temperature is regarded, but there should be a certain fluctuation nevertheless.
Of course, it will not be easy to interpret the results of your experiments since you probably cannot guarantee laboratory conditions. But let us see. At any rate, it’s the first time that somebody of this network takes personal measures in order to prove a hypothesis. That’s fine, indeed!
I found some papers on the daily changes of water temperature in summer in Poland on the example of some rivers and streams. The temperature varies considerably (even over 10 degrees difference).
And of course, first I need to make a controller.
I use this site a lot when setting temperatures. I find it very useful.
I’d like to agree with the article this topic started about. I keep my Betta, paros and irrubesco puffer at slightly higher than twenty degrees. They all do fine. Only Betta strohi seems to really need high temperature. When I dropped temp to 22 degrees they started to look really bad very quickly. When I put it to 24 it got a little better, but now I keep them at 26 degrees. So it doesn’t go up for all fish. Still, it is very good not to believe everything they say, but think for yourself and look at how nature does it.
It’s a very interesting thread – thank you, Sverting, for posting the link to the article on “seriouslyfish”.
I keep all my fish at room temperature – this means, at around 21°C water temperature in winter – in summer it increases to about 26°C. No filters, only additional light during the darker months/hours of day. At night the temperature drops to 19°C in winter, that’s the minimum water temperature I noticed.
I keep Dario dario, Pseudosphromenus dayi, Badis kanabos and Badis singenensis, Boraras maculatus and B. brigittae and Danio margaritatus at these temperatures – and my new P. nagyi too. Dario, the Badis species and Danio bred (and still breed) successfuly, the Pseudosphromenus are still young, but already spawning. I’ve also seen the Paros spawning – it might still have been sham pairings, but still!
I am convinced my fish are doing quite well with these temperatures.
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