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Although I really feel like making a fool of myself by admitting a silly mistake – I ask for some good advice.
As I reported in my “new quindecim”-thread my female quindecim somehow got into the neighbouring tank, joining four undeterminable female paros.
A few days ago I allegedly succeeded in catching her again by chance and put her back into her “husband’s” tank. Almost at once after putting the female into his tank the reaction of the male quindecim gave rise to doubts whether this really was his old “wife”. He showed a very aggressive display, and in the following days it was very obvious that he didn’t want her – though she was really making advances to him.But it also became absolutely certain that it was not the quindecim-female I put into his tank looking at the remaining females in the neighbouring tank…… There is one great difference between the four females of unknown species and the quindecim female: The rims of the eyes of quindecim, male and female, are always pearl-white, very distinct – no matter of mood. The four undetermined females have red eye rims. And the quindecim female with the white “spectacles” is still in the wrong tank …
Today I decided to catch the wrong female out of the males tank because I was in fear that the male’s mood might change and he might begin to show interest in the female of the wrong species. But it was too late – just a few minutes ago I saw them mating in one of the caves.What can I do now? It’s a very difficult situation because the quindecim fry (I can surely distinguish four of them) are still in this tank. If the hybrid clutch hatches – how will I keep quindecim fry and hybrid fry apart? If there were no fry in this tank, I would simply catch the female out and leave the male to care for the clutch. After hatching, I would also take the male out and would be sure that there are hybrid fry between quindecim and ? in this tank. But now I am not able to separate father, clutch and quindecim fry from each other ……..
I hope you can give me good advice ……….. It’s a situation I never intendend to cause ……..
Interesting. I wonder what will come out, if anything at all. If they happen to produce viable fry, they problably won’t be fertile, or reduced. Let’s see what pops up!
I can see that in some way its quite interesting what will happen – but on the other hand 🙁
Stefanie, – first of all, – lets say they develop, – which I also doubt – but if there are already quindecim fry in the tank, these will be quite different in size by now. You will be able to see which are which.
And then I would also say, – if it was me, – I might interfere now. There might be eggs but they havent developed yet. And I would say, do you want to really go on and take the risk they do develop ?
If you destroy whatever nest, and fix the ‘lady-situation’ – theres a good chance the male will mate again tomorrow and have new eggs hatching.
I dont know if there is any knowlegde regarding whether it is possible for these fish to interbreed, if theres no knowledge you could say it is valuable information. But I would think this situation would have likely happened before, so there must be some knowledge.
Quindecim is such a different species, I doubt they would be able to interbreed.🙂
Yes, Bartian, that’s one aspect. I thought that maybe if they are viable and develop well, I could put them back to one or two of their yet undetermined “aunts” to try out their fertility. Maybe male hybrids unveil their mother’s species by showing typical colour aspects …………. at least in the following generations after backcrossing. And maybe this results in a chance to find matching males for the four unknown girls at last…………….But by now my problem is how to separate the existing quindecim fry from their straying father and his bastard children ……………….
I dont quite understand why you think that is so difficult 🙂 ..
How big size tank are they in ?
And why do you need to take them out now, why not wait untill they are a bit older and easier to catch.
I am really quite sure you can see the difference between the quindecim fry and any new fry hatching now – they will be much smaller.
I have often different size fry in my tanks, – its quite easy to see when there are ‘new babies’ around.But of course – eventually you need to catch them out before they mature, – and if its a bigger tank than 20 liter, well, – then it is always a hazzle. But its possible 😉 .. you just need to empty the whole tank, though.
So – everything is in good order again 🙂
I succeeded in catching both females and putting them back into their home tanks.The mating I watched between the quindecim male and the female of uncertain species seems to be without consequences: He didn’t stay in the cave to guard a possible clutch, and I didn’t observe any further mating.
As I have already reported in my nagyi-thread there is one single offspring which first I believed to be a young of my nagyi-pair.
But looking at the recent photos of this young – which I took to better be able to sex the fish – great doubts arose.
Being unusually colourful from the beginning the fish now reveals it’s gender clearly – but also I now mean to see a quindecim pattern in the tail fin. Something that also seemed quite unusual for nagyi to me from the beginning is the jagged seam of the dorsal and the anal fins which is deeply white. Looking at the photos of the development of my nagyi pair I found that in nagyi the teeth of the dorsal fin rays never show this deep clear white with no iridescent shimmer.
As I observed in nagyi the shimmering bands in dorsal and anal fin develop almost simultaneously. This young male in question shows a developing iridescent band in the anal fin – but not in the dorsal, which in my opinion is much too red for a nagyi.
One other feature seems to develop: at the base of dorsal and anal fin where they emerge from the body a light seam begins to show – as in quindecim. Nagyi do not show this.
And last, but not least – I mean to see a quindecim “flower-like” pattern in the tail fin …………Some photos to compare:
Still young qunidecim male:
My nagyi-male when it was still young:
And now the young male in question to be a hybrid:
A cutout of the tail fin:
And for comparison a cutout of the nagyi male tail fin:
Have you got more photos of this young fish ?
Photos can play tricks on the eye sometimes.
But I can see what you meanNot the tail only, the other fins are not typical nagyi too.
And the photo of the “nagyi”-male when it was young is strange, too. I would not recognize it as nagyi.
Never seen something like this.
Why do you think it to be a nagyi?
Have there ever been adult nagyi and quindecim swimming in the same tank?I am constantly waiting for the fish to show – but, as I said – it is very secretive.
Here are two more pictures taken on the same day as the one above:
What irritates me is that you can always see the 4 little white spots in the tail fin, even if the colours seem different depending on the way the light falls on the fish.
I will post new photos as soon as I succeed in making them ….
[quote=”Peter Finke” post=3015]Not the tail only, the other fins are not typical nagyi too.
And the photo of the “nagyi”-male when it was young is strange, too. I would not recognize it as nagyi.
Never seen something like this.
Why do you think it to be a nagyi?
Have there ever been adult nagyi and quindecim swimming in the same tank?[/quote]Hello, Peter,
the young nagyi male (bred by Thorsten Kolb and Anne Pähler) indeed looked a bit strange in it’s youth – first showing really no tail fin colouration. But it developed to a “normal” nagyi, as you can see in my avatar picture and in my nagyi thread.
I first supposed the young fish to be an offspring of my nagyi pair – the “Yeti”-story I reported some time ago. But finding it looking so strange now when showing first colours it reminded me of my quindecim – and I suspected it might be an offspring of the accident I reported here some time ago (see the beginning of this thread): When my quindecim female somehow got into the tank with the females of unknown species which I bought from an import last year. And I – trying to put it back to it’s husband – mistakenly put one of the unknown females in the quindecim tank instead – where it mated once with the quindecim male before I succeeded in putting it back again in it’s own tank and in re-uniting the quindecim pair.
So – if it’s an offspring of my nagyi it should be nagyi,too 😉 .
But if it’s not it must be a hybrid between quindecim and ? And I think I see nagyi features – the short, rounded ventrals, the reddish-brown body colours. You once supposed my unknown females might possibly be nagyi – that’s why I think it might have a nagyi mother – if it’s a hybrid.Got some more pictures today. To me – still looking “nagyish” from first impression – but the closer you look the stranger the colours you detect:
Watch the purple proximal base of the dorsal fin resp. the bluish proximal base of the anal fin along the belly, which becomes red near the caudal end of the fin:
Against the light – strange colouration of the dorsal fin – even for a young fish with no fully developed colouration. Note the purplish base.
The white spot near fin ray no 10 is no artefact, it can be seen from far(not sharp, but just to give an impression, also see first picture of this post):
The caudal fin is almost framed by a strong white seam – even at the vertical hind rim of the fin. I’ve never seen this feature in my “true” nagyi male.
I just recalled – this fish has been unusually red from the beginning. When I first saw him he was about 1 cm max., and I was not sure if it really was a paro – the fry of my quindecim and rubrimontis never showed this reddish colouration:
Compared to my other fry a quite extraordinary colouration.
Two new pictures from today – after again having not seen him for a few days.
To me – definitely a male, and I also think that nagyi-features become more visible – although I still find the colours extraordinary.
It’s creeping underneath the leaves very often and chasing brine shrimp – so here it’s only an aspect of the anal and caudal fin:
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