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Our distribution service has improved the distribution of Paros within Germany considerably, but not in other countries.
1. What could we do to improve it across the borders? Shipping our fish across borders remains risky. You never know how much time a parcel will need. It is especially risky in the colder periods of the year. Is there any suggestion how to make things better?
2. There is another problem which is to be solved. Often, there is great breeding success. There are breeders with 50 young linkei or 60 young nagyi, but they don’t know to whom they coukd give the fish. They could forward perhaps 10 or 20, but 30 or 40 remain with them.
Many breeders try to breed small clutches only, but sometimes you really cannot control it and then – you have 50 or 60 young. We often have this incongruency of breeding success and a too little number of people seeking these species.
Are there any suggestions how to manage this situaion? Should we give the fish to the trade, knowing that they will not be handled adequately?
How about a open search and offer section here in the forum?
Plus maybe a section where you can ask for help with transport to receive fish.The problem with the distribution is in my opinion that you don´t know if
someone has fish to offer or if someone is looking for fish if you
don´t ask. It´s not transparent.
It also excludes the opportunity to make a spontaneous offer if you
travel somewhere.I offered fry last year without any response. For me it was
not clear if there aren´t any people looking for Paros or just not in
my region.
In the IGL-forum was also no reaction…
In the end I brought them to a local fishshop here in Stockholm.greetings
VolkerIn january I ordered some aquarium plants in Holland. I received a message that the parcel would be sent on Monday. It was delivered at my place in Belgium on Tuesday morning. I had to pay 7,75€ for this delivery service, what seemed rather cheap compared to driving 500km by car. According their website, parcels to Germany are quoted at the same price. Perhaps such kind of service can be suitable for transporting fish across borders as well. Using a heat pack might help.
But what for do we need a solution for the described transport problems?
This can only be an issue when a seller and a buyer have found each other, start talking about concrete delivery. Therefore, I fully agree with Volker.The forum’s trade-section allows members to report/describe species offered in local shops. For what reason wouldn’t these same members be able to offer their own fish ? Isn’t this forum the place where all people arrive to see, read and write when they are interested in, or desperately searching for Parosphromenus?
Nowadays, somebody from Berlin is offering P. quindecim ‘Nachzuchten’ on e-bay. Do I have to report this in the trade section if this same person didn’t want to communicate this offer openly on the forum?
Grtz,
S.We as P-P could only make an offer for seekers and for breeders to come together individually. This is used quite efficiently in Germany. The distribution-address is open for anybody on either side. We have a representative behind it (he is Frank Büttner from Meiningen in Thuringia who followed Michael Beuscher) to whose address all enquiries from either side will be automatically directed, and he will communicate with the sender on his wishes. It does make no difference if the sender is a breeder with offers or a seeker with a wish to get hold of special species.
My question referred to two remaining problems:
1. What could we do additionally for breeders with greater numbers of young Paros?
2. How could we make this system work across borders?The plant-method will not work because the normal German organization for postings (“die Post”) will accept plants but not accept animals as being shipped. There are other organizations which will but they are much more expensive and not at hand everywhere. And the time for delivery is not really calculable.
The main problem is not to get Paros from germany to the Netherlands or to Denmark, but to get them to Britain or Norway or the U.S. There even have been enquiries from Malaysia (!), for there are members too who don’t know how to get hold of these fish … Maybe, in some years time this could really be a problem if the habitat-destruction proceeds in the same speed than up to now. (But it is not meant seriously at present).
I think you have to be German, to detect any logic in the current distribution system.
it may be very well fit for the German tradition and culture, but it just seems unnecessarily complex and inefficient to me.in an open system where seekers and senders can find each other directly, I think its much easier to sell great numbers of young Paros. and find breeders across the borders.
With the current system both buyer and seller have to make clear they either want to sell or buy something very specifically, and even at roughly the same time. A topic on the “trade” forum, which is already present, would be much more efficient.
I once sent some Sicydium from the Netherlands to London, in the bagage section of an airplane. I packed eight or so of them in a bag with a liter of water and filled the bag with oxygen. I put the bag in a small styrofoam box, which was packed in the guy’s suitcase. They all survived and are now swimming happily in a London fishtank!
This should be possible with paro’s too, I guess…The distribution service undoubtedly helps people searching for, or offering Paros. When it’s representative encounters difficulties as described above he can use the forum to post:
1/ a week or monthly overview of young P. species that are currently available, and invite everyone who is interested to contact him by mail or personal message.
2/ concrete requests for transport of Paros indicating the regions of departure and destination.
He might get an answer from a member who knows a truck driver, from someone who knows an english company that will have a stand on an international trade fair in the Hannover Messe, and so on.
Concerning the enquiries from Malaysia, I suggest to check a list of German expats in Malaysia and send a friendly mail to all these people who may come back to Germany once or twice a year.To illustrate the importance of using the forum in such matters, I refer to a message from Hugues Van Besien less than a year ago: looking for someone who will take my paros.
Best regards
[quote=”Teunis” post=2307]I think you have to be German, to detect any logic in the current distribution system.
it may be very well fit for the German tradition and culture, but it just seems unnecessarily complex and inefficient to me.in an open system where seekers and senders can find each other directly, I think its much easier to sell great numbers of young Paros. and find breeders across the borders.[/quote]
I am German – but I absolutely agree with what you say.
I also can’t see the necessity to have someone as go-between between breeder and buyer. It’s a honorary post someone has to manage besides his own business. And it definitely suffers from the lack of time of this person, that’s my experience. (I understand this – this shall absolutely not be a complaint about the current distributor. But it’s precisely why the whole system needs improvement!)
I on the one hand encourage the suggestion to have an open system here at the forum where breeders can offer their fish and interested persons can contact them directly or post a request themselves.
Another possibilty that would restrict the contacts to registered members only (which in my opinion might be useful), is the publication of the breeders’ (eMail)-addresses with the census. It’s not necessary to publish the complete postal address, only the town and the eMail-address. It would also be helpful to add information about the breeders’ willingness to ship their fish if it’s impossible for the buyer to pick them up himself. This would open the possibility to contact the breeder directly, without stressing a third person. And the exclusive access for members of the paro-project only would prevent the breeders from casual requests without a real deep interest in these special fish.
I really can’t see advantage in the interposition of someone who has to do all the work of looking for suitable breeders to your request – which could faster and more effectively be done by yourself.
The distribution system should be made more efficient, without question. But there is a lack of constructive ideas so far. What is to be read in these postings exhibits the fact that the writers are inconscious about the problems we face. I shall mention only two major problems, there are more.
The first problem is that the breeders decide themselves whether they are willing to expose their names and addresses openly. We tried to get them agree to this idea, but most breeders refused to accept. There are different reasons behind. One that has to be taken serioulsy is the argument that you should not offer rare endangered fish as you do with “normal” aquarium fish. Serious Paro friends realize that there is a difference between trading normal stuff and living beings, especially if they are really endangered. The breeders are not willing to contribute to a situation in which a sudden run on such fish might arouse (as we have experienced it with catfish or cichlids or others). I think that this hesitation has to be taken serious, although I think it must not necessarily arise from a publication of the addresses. But I have to respect this opinion.
Most breeders are conscious about the fact that this is an obstacle to easier contacts between breeders and new Paro friends, but they deny to the publication of their address nevertheless. I have to accept it, although things would run much smoother and quicker the direct way. But if I loose most of the good breeders by going this path, it’s wrong.
The second problem is that the more difficult way we prefer presently has the advantage to let the project supervise the system of distribution. One central advantage of the Paro-Project-system is to give a certain control to the fate of endangered fish by giving vital information about the status of the different species and forms at the disposal of the project. It has been much praised for that, and this is a big difference to most other aquaristic activities. I don’t think it would be a progress to more existential safety for them if we would organize a complete free exchange between breeders and buyers. For them, it would make things easier, but for our knowledge about the state of the stocks it would not be helpful.
Nevertheless I think, we could improve the system. Ideas are much wanted. But they should reflect that without the consent of the majority of the breeders and without thinking of our knowledge of the state of the stocks this will not work. Making things easier cannot be the only directive one has to follow. Things are a bit more difficult.
And wordings like “One has to be German in order to understand this system at all” are not helpful. Let’s look for better solutions than those we have, but not neglecting the two points I have mentioned.
Peter, because I am aware of the two important points you mention I suggested to only publish the breeders’ addresses in the inner circle of those who have access to or receive the results of the census.
By doing that, only persons who are so very interested in paros that they register here at the project will be able to get in direct contact to paro breeders.
I understand that these rare fish shall not be distributed in an irresponsible way. And I think the requirement of a membership at the project will sort out those fish keepers that choose their fish by fashion ……………We tend to forget that we do have a system here of communicating with each other ‘back-stage’ as you might say. Through the private messaging. It is possible to open a thread – and we may even ?? have a category for this in which you might post freely what you are looking for, – leaving it up to anyone who sees your post to answer through the private message.
As someone with quite a lot of offspring, I understand what Peter is saying. I would also be concerned about things being too open, because I have to admit, – I really like to have a choice (to say no, that is) and if you make it open, – saying I have so and so many, – you cant really not accept if someone comes around and say, – hi, I would like to buy 10 of your fish.
I gladly give away fish if I know they are given to someone who has a keen interest, has some experience and are prepared for what they are going into when aquiring paros, – but I really dont like to sell fish which goes into an ‘unknown future’.If someone posted here ‘I am really looking for p.parvulus – if anyone here hass offspring please send me a private message’ – then I could determine whether I wanted to or not, – and trust me, I really do wish to give fish away, – so I would be happy if someone was looking for p.parvulus in this way.
Do you think this way could be an option ?
It is actually also possible to make categories in this forum which is only open for certain members – like we could create a list of people who
1. Was a member here
2. Personally wrote to us and requested to become a member of this sort of ‘inside group’ (we could call it … for breeders … or something else.The access to this category would then (through administration) be resticted to members of the ‘inside group’.
Of course theres no way to really refuse anyone who requested it once they had joined our website, but I would assume that once you did that, you were quite serious about things. And again, I personally would probably never put up, that I had so and so many fish for sale, but I might look if someone was looking for any of the species I do have, and I might reply to someone searching for it.
in most fora its possible to create restricted categories to prevent the situation that the fish end up in the wrong hands.
and if you are offering fish it is not necessary to sell them to anyone who is interested. you can (and should) ask more information from the buyer before you decide to sell them (or not)
Perhaps we could improve to tell each other when we make a longer journey, or tell when we need a transfer? In the forum a thread or to the distributors?
Me for example, I go about once a year to the North Sea, and come by train through Hamburg.
If I would knew about 12 weeks before, I can plan the trip with a stop to give ordered fish to their new owners …And if someone knows that he/she or some friends will go over sea they could tell?
I think, it’s worth to wait for those rare an specific fish till the right way to transport them will be there …and we see that it’s most times a problem to get those fish from the trade ….
Another aspect to make the distribution even more complicated 😉
We, who are not breeding bigger amounts of fish, like the good Paro breeders, we get one or two pairs of Paros … They spawn and we manage to get the youngster grow up …
we give them away and have now pairs of brothers and sisters … What’s about the gen pool? 😉
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