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[quote=”Deepin peat” post=3737]I think that even if we get close to 10 Euros for one fish it is not a problem. I would guess in Germany and everywhere else in western Europe any common Apistogramma would be the same price or more and most people would buy 1-2 pairs of Paros so I would not be scared that people who look for Paros as such would not pay that price for healthy and nice fish without risking issues with weakened and damaged specimens from direct imports.[/quote]
I definitely agree. I’m surely not made of money but 10 Euro for a fish including transport sounds good ……….. for example I have already bought two pairs of paros for 30 Euro (the agreed price at the project for a pair of paros here in Germany is 15 Euro) – plus 30 Euro for transportation by a special animal carrier. Makes 15 Euro per fish ………….
Interesting for comparison … when we can get Paros here is the U.S. we are looking at costs of between $6 & $7 each. This assumes you will purchase a minimum of 6. If you add on shipping you must add on an additional $35. Cost per fish turns out to be somewhere between $12 & $13 per fish. Purchasing 6 however, you are relatively sure of obtaining a pair or perhaps 2 pair if you are lucky.
Yeah Bill, I can get Paros from trade within a range of 2-5 bucks each. But that depends on market I think. The standard of life here is not nearly as high as in the U.S. and Germany or other Western Europe countries + Czech Republic always used to be a big exporter of ornamental fish, so people are used to pay less for the fish here. On the other hand this leads to lower quality of some imported fish becouse of the the need to keep the price low. There is not such an offer here as Wetspot has on Aquabid for example. But there were two species of Paros available within a period of one months lately. I was really suprised how cheap they are here. But all in all what none of us get from the trade are fish with certain locality of collection.
Time changes and (some) people learn. Some years ago one of our best breeders, Günter Kopic, tried to sell about 20 nearly adult P. nagyi at at fair for special fish (Apistogramma, Spaerichthys, special barbs and others). He demanded 5 Euros for one individual. He sold none. People said: 5 Euros for such a small fish? No, much too expensive! – I am quite sure, the situation would not be very different today. But I admit, that this here (the environment of the P-P) is something different. There are people – f.i. the members of our project – who have a more realistic view on the value of such a small endangered fish. But I doubt that this a widespread conviction already. In the U.S. and in many other countries the price for “ornamental fish” in the pet shops – “dead? No problem: buy a new one!” – has resulted in super-market-like dimensions. Even in Germany it was hard work to come to the conviction that a pair of Paros should cost at least 15,00 Euros, some more (parvulus, ornaticauda). Transnational transfers work if the single fish is either big like a Discus or cheap like a Neon; all our hitherto experience shows it does not yet work with Paros. Hopefully we can change it, then there will be a way to go on. It may work already presently with definite specialized partners, but these connections must be established beforehand. Otherwise it’s a play with uncertain result hat no breeder will be ready to undertake.
And Bill: Buying from a breeder personally means that you get what you want, species and sex. Sometimes even with locality. That’s an important difference and it may cost a bit more. Pet shops have mixed calculations, breeders are specialized and must calculate acutely. As the world of today is, the value of an animal is to be expressed in money. You cannot describe a Paro as endangered and rare and sell it for a few cents only.
But we discuss matters here, in the P-P. This is the right context to get understanding from well-informed people. If you start this discussion in a normal aquarium journal you are surrounded by special-price offers and meet dozens of people who do not consent at all. It’s this climate of the super market which makes international distribution of Paros as difficult as it is up to now. Most aquarists are not open for discussions on rarity or threat; for them the price is all. This even leads to the opposite end: Koi junkies spend hundreds of Dollars for one – big – fish; it’s an investment like a house or a car. We Paro-friends are extremists, a minority that must pay the real price of good transport for fish often in their caves not to be seen at all. But there is no alternative: Breeders sometimes have too many fish and aquarists in other parts of the world have too little. They must be connected. Therefore we discuss things here.
There is a better solution, however, in the long run: There should be more Paro-breeders not in Germany only, but in many other countries too; that should minimize the ways and costs for transport. To my impression, this is in the very beginning in the U.S.only, and in very early stages in many European countries. Let’s discuss this as one prime issue at our first international meeting next year in Hamburg.
I really think that time is changing – there are still many people who want everything for nothing, but also many who spend hundreds of Euros for Aquaristic technic as CO2 and computers, or for Sea water tanks, or Koi as you say.
I found people to pay 30 Euro for to get as express sending tylomelania snails from me, just to get the snails safe in one day sent. (In this case I made no profit , but I was glad to have them sent in a safe way and that where “just” snails, who breed very easily) ….
And if you get two good, healthy fish, with documented origin from a breeder for a prize you have to pay in a shop for 10 ill, weak, and early dying fish, I think it’s not so difficult to choose the best quality for the same prize …
Another example: plants…. I don’t really want to know how many money I spent in the last ten years for plants which were eaten by my tylomelania snails or recently by my black water …
One pack of good Ceratopteris from France to Germany sent by a kind member of the project was worth all the plants I bought before for the blackwater – now I have in four tanks phantastic plants!
Hello again!
An idea: could we have a place in our profile, where (who wants) can write the actual stock?
For example me: end of October, final date of the census, I just saw one of my linkei offspring, the other 35 must have been already four weeks old, but didn’t show themselves. Now I have 32 juvenile P.linkei, who already can be differed in male and female ….And I have been asked now to try with a more rare P. species than P. linkei. But I will not be able to build one tank after the other till I have 20 or 50 of them 😉 so I would like to concentrate my energie. Till now I have one or two tanks with other species of fish which can be given to Paros when the time is right.
But I think we all would need a better “flow” between breeders and the people who are looking for fish.
One thing is obvious: distribution must be inside the P.-P. , our fish can’t be given for example to the traders.
So what do you think about the profile notice? There are people who will not do that, they don’t even give their name and home town, but the others?This could indeed be a useful supplement to our distribution address but only if the most needed informations are given. Mind that many problems are based on the problem of locations and often in situations at the border of two European countries.
These necessary informations for all of us could be: forum name/clear name/country/town/species ready for distribution, approx. number/personal collection only or readiness for shipping, too
An example: Peter Finke/Peter Finke/Germany/Bielefeld/P. paludicola, ca. 20/ready for shipping. (This is not an actual offer, but an example only).
All other things could be disputed about in personal communication.
To illustrate the point with a special request: I know of a young Swiss friend who is unable to get Paros in Switzerland at present. But living near the German border he would be ready to fetch his fish personally if the breeder lives not to far away. Otherwise he would be ready to pay a good transport company.
If he wants P. linkei he can get them near Freiburg or braught from Freiburg to Basel for example… Basel is a nice town to make a trip to 😉
[quote=”7 Zwerge” post=4231]Hello again!
An idea: could we have a place in our profile, where (who wants) can write the actual stock?
[/quote]Dorothee, I appreciate this idea very much! And exactly in the way Peter suggests:
These necessary informations for all of us could be: forum name/clear name/country/town/species ready for distribution, approx. number/personal collection only or readiness for shipping, too
That’s what I suggested more than a year ago at the beginning of this thread – but my idea was to give these informations with the census report.
But the idea to add a special column to our profile (to be filled in or not ….for those who don’t want to expose themselves even in a forum restricted to members only) seems to be much better:- It will also be restricted to members of the paro project only,
- the great advantage over the distribution via the census report is the possibility to keep it up-to-date by yourself – daily, if needed, not only twice a year with the census report
- even if you are not actually looking for some new paros it is interesting to see who successfully breeds which species
Unfortunately, it was impossible for me to take part in the latest census in autumn 2014 due to health restrictions. So now there are no data about my fish for one complete year – Spring 2014 til spring 2015. A profile column with your recent stock and offspring ready to be distributed would be a great improvement!
I would like to say, that these ideas are something which we are working with ‘behind’ the scenes with regard to how to improve the homepage. There are some good ways to improve and make it easier to use profile information as described here.
So I will just say, that at the moment I am hopeful that we will be able to soon make a few changes which will make it easier, and of course it is still quite possible to just note the information as Peter suggested.And just to add : what I mean saying we are working with it, is that there are actual plans, – hopefully happening in not so long time, – involving a few changes to the homepage, – and this is one of the ideas which will be part of that. It will all have to be tested and approved, – but I am hoping it will be helpful also in this aspect.
Yes, we should and will proceed in this direction. But I want to point out that nobody should have too great expectations:
– Such a new feature will not replace the regular half-annual census. Why not? Because we need a fixed-day/-month in order to have a rational overview of the present state of affairs. All who think that the actual state of the species could be mirrored by the new method are wrong: It will offer some new possibilities of advertising or searching, nothing more. The EAC has a similar feature since long, but it does not work for all the breeders and all the species. It works for those who want to use it for solving their problem. It’s a supplement, nothing else.
– It will therefore not replace the distribution-system, because the distribution-system is much more general, not bound to reading and writing in the forums. There are many who don’t use any forum and they won’t probably in the future either. Even in our membership. Many good breeders have never entered our forums. And it’s no solution to uncouple it from the forums: There are many who visit our homepage very irregularly. You cannot change the habits of people who follow their own agenda.
– Therefore, the most important thing is the following: Such a feature will be used by some who like it, but it will not be used by others, even of our members. Telling the real name, the town and the actual stock is for some people not attractive but the exact contrary. We can try to advertise and boost it, and we should and will, but it will remain everybody’s preference to use it or not to use it. But I advocate to install it nevertheless, because those who want to use it can find new contacts for exchanging fish.
That is to say, the new feature will be a complement and supplement, but nothing more. I think it could be a nice, useful supplement, but it will not be the ideal solution to one of our most difficult problems: how to get searchers for Paros and breeders of Paros together. For this aim, we need a diversity of methods. The new feature will work only then when a breeder is willing to use it. But I know many who will not do so even if I beg them to do. Nevertheless, they c o u l d. This makes it worthwhile to get it online.
I like that idea. As Peter says it will not work for all people, but if it works for some of the members who need to empty their tanks, it would be great.
I agree to all Peter has written!
It’s just an additional tool and cannot replace a scientific evaluation like the half annual census.
( even if not everybody takes part …)
And I think also an “overview” by the distribution is necessary….to see which ways our fishes are going …
But I would be glad about every tool which improves the “flow” … I love my fish having offspring – and I had many of other species before I got my first Paros – but it has always been a problem to get good new places for them ….[quote=”Peter Finke” post=4237]Such a new feature will not replace the regular half-annual census. [/quote]
I think that has never been the aim of those who would appreciate such a new profile column. Additional to the census – not instead of it. The census in my eyes has another focus than being a trading floor.
[quote=”Peter Finke” post=4237]That is to say, the new feature will be a complement and supplement, but nothing more. I think it could be a nice, useful supplement, but it will not be the ideal solution to one of our most difficult problems: how to get searchers for Paros and breeders of Paros together. For this aim, we need a diversity of methods. The new feature will work only then when a breeder is willing to use it. But I know many who will not do so even if I beg them to do. Nevertheless, they c o u l d. This makes it worthwhile to get it online.[/quote]
For those who are eager to use it it will be a great improvement – as a matter of fact this will be those of us who use the forum and made their suggestions in the forum.
One personal remark: I know that there are some successful breeders who have never shown up in this forum. I do not quite understand them ……… to join a project like this, which is meant to be international and can only be international by being on the internet, means to be willing to contribute to the preservation, reproduction and the distribution of these endangered little fish. Therefore – not to use a forum like this to spread their experience and knowledge and to find interested people to distribute their paro offspring to, seems rather counterproductive to me. Sitting in an ivory tower, contactable only by a few hand-picked persons, in my eyes is not the way to successfully contribute to the complete aims of the project. No offense – only my personal thoughts……………..
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