Increasing UK species base?

[john walsh]

Being based in the UK, i do not have the same viable access to the wild caught fish that have reliable identification and location data, that my European friends enjoy through your network of private collectors and importers. Therefore i have to rely on the fish that turn up in the trade. i can say with confidence that I have P. Nagyi, P. Linkei and P. Parvulus, maybe even P.Phoenicurus (via Ruinemans), but the positive identification of any specimens from the Bintan sub group (including sp. blue line?, sp. Sentang?, sp Dua?) can only ever be best guesses based on photographs and reference books.
I do have supportive LFS’s (Aqualife, The Fish Hut, Pier Aquatics, Fishcove)who have and will import from SE Asia and/or Europe for me when Paros appear on their supplier lists. However, it would be a useful resource if there was a list of all the major European Wholesalers who are likely to have wild caught Paros on their lists from time to time. Then i can, hopefully, watch their published lists for suitable fish (NOT those described as Deisneri !) and encourage my LFS to import to the UK from them.Any help with the names of likely suppliers would be greatly appreciated.
Of course, a more foolproof way of increasing the species available in the UK would be to set up legal channels for importing from private Paro friends in mainland Europe. If i was to make an assumption that i would pay all courier and packaging fees as well as cost of the fish, and a LFS would use their import license to order from a private European collector on my behalf (presumable for a fee), what additional burden would fall on the European mainland based private Paro friend who was willing to help me out? Would they need an export licence? How much would one cost?

[Rod Porteous]

Not a bad idea having a list of European Importers, maybe that should be on this site somewhere. Regarding European imports, I don’t think you need any kind of licence, as that would be covered by European trade agreement. If its already ben legally imported, then moving them around the Eurozone should be hassle and licence free.

[Peter Finke]

There are some good suggestions in this mail of Jalmj’s. Let me respond to two of them:

1. Commercial importers: I suggest that readers of this European forum in the different countries name the foremost companies that have proved to be reliable importers of licorice gouramies in their country here in this forum. There are always the same names, but sometimes a new one is to be added. I think, the name of the company and the country would suffice; everybody can find an internet-URL himself. I suggest Helene should collect those names/countries and put it into one overview, after some time.

2. Breeders in Germany: Indeed, we have quite a few good breeders in our country with many offspring of different species at times. And often there is the problem to get these fish into the hands of good aquarists who are conscious about the special requirements of blackwater fish that eat live food only. The shipping of these fish is no problem in principle since very small containers (f.i. plastic bottles) suffice because they are no permanently swimming fish. A problem is temperature resp. season (cold winter! hot summer!) and time (customs! habits of different shipping companies!), even within the European Union. In other words: Shipping within the borders of one contry is much less risky than transnational shipping, even within the EU. Sometimes there are no problems at all, things go fast, sometimes it’s the contrary. Therefore, the time of the year right now is not the best to have first tries. I suggest that we see which companies would do such a job and what the costs are. That will need some time and the temperatures will rise again. The potential addressees could help by clarifying the customs conditions (especially the time needed) in your country. There maybe no problem at all, but there maybe many problems, too (for example if declared as “living animals”, and good companies do that).
All partners mus be clear about the risks. It is not possible to take the breeder/sender as the only one taking responsibility for that risks.
The costs for such a relatively reliable shipping accross the borders could be markedly higher than the simple price for the animals. This must be clear to anybody involved. The money must be transmitted before, but this is much easier now with SEPA-banking than it was before.
So, there is no opposition against shipping across the borders in principle. We are gladly willing to do this. But there is good and bad experience with the results. Once, the whole things needed two and a half days only form breeder to recipient, but on several occasions – although it was said to be a quick thing – the parcel was stored at a border/at a customs office for a week, and the animals were dead when at last it arrived. Maybe we can minimize that risks by choosing special companies and make a fair agreement on the risks.

I shall add a last note: We are definitely willing to organize a first international meeting of the Parosphromenus-Project in September 2015 in Hamburg (Germany). There will be about ten species available. As soon as details are clear, we publish them here.

[helene schoubye]

If there is a wish for a list I can make that. I would though like to say that we have here also a link section. In this there is a category named shops. Theres not a lot of links there yet, – but if I had more I could add these shops to the links. The shops that already is mentioned on the list are shops which have been reported as having paros.
I can make a category specificly with links of importers.

I would say to this though, – that even though I have two shops here in Copenhagen which regularly have good paros, I have stopped using these. Except for a few times, such as the last import of p.phoenicurus in Germany, most of these imports of wild caught paros are uncertain identities, or as you mention they are p.linkei and p.nagyi (without location)

I personally rely mainly on fish I aquire through personal contacts, and then keep on breeding these.

I have before been talking to someone from UK about this, – and I think it would be really good to make some structure in the project which could help bring more paros with certain identification and location to UK.
Living in Denmark I personally have a big problem with off spring. I think there may be other individuals in the project around in areas outside of Germany, and individuals who are perhaps not in the category of ‘breeders’ – but where the problem still is quite big. And where it would also be really nice if there was help.
Somehow it is really a problem that one is trying to help with breeding a rare species, – and helping by being ‘godfather’, – but then end up with more and more tanks with too many offsprings.
I do know that if its on a larger scale import we are talking about its not helpful, but we shouldnt forget this aspect of private people who have too much success with breeding, and who are living outside of Germany sometimes.

How would it be if someone travelled in person to UK ? I have heard that it is possible to take fish on the plane, packed well in a suitcase. Its only about an hours travel. Just asking 🙂 ?? Dont know if it is possible.

[Russell Green]

I completely agree with jalmj. I would also like to obtain species of Paro with a definite identification. The most information we usually get from the LFS is the name of the importer and nothing else. As we all know, trying to identify stressed and colourless fish in a LFS aquarium is almost impossible. Without knowing anything of their origin, it’s a frustrating situation.

I recently purchased a group of P. Phoenicurus. They came into the UK at the same time as the positively identified fish arrived in Germany, they are small as are the German fish. They also look like the fish in the photos. But as I don’t have any positive information about location, can I be certain that they are Phoenicurus?

This is the kind of situation we end up with, and as I said, its frustrating.

[john walsh]

I think it would be useful to the aims of the Project, if the UK based Paro friends who are committed to breeding and maintaining these little jewels, were to form a loose group within the Project, to promote the Project, share information, and keep an up to date localised census of the stock held within the UK. This cohort could act as a virtual hub for dispersing surplus stock to those new friends attracted to the cause.
We should embrace the imperative to propogate, and be prepared to sell on our fish onto other Paro friends if our own breeding attempts with specific species have failed. I have always understood that keep these fish and not breed them is consumption and not preservation.
Such a distribution hub would ease the introduction of paro species with proper identification and location data into the UK. This could be achieved by the sharing of costs in bringing fish from mainland Europe into the UK. I agree with Helene by the way, and some basic research underlines her hunch,that it is much cheaper to get a return flight on a budget airline from Manchester to Hamburg (For instance), than it is to pay for a 24hour courier service.
That link from the mainland to these islands is crucial if Stock levels of the most endangered species are to grow, but also in ensuring that the gene pool of individual species, when refreshed, is maintained in distinct populations.
The costs of collecting the fish and returning to the UK could be shared by all those in the UK who were recieving these fish. And the fish could be delivered to their new keepers via an agreed, central meeting/distibution point (eg Motorway service station).
This could work, and i ask all the UK paro friends who are interested in helping each other in this way to contact me via private message.
However, perhaps the biggest difficulty, is in establishing de facto distribution hubs on the mainland. It is rare, i would suspect, that any one airport city has more than one paro friend with surplus stock at any given time. So we would need the locations and ParoProject mailbox contact details of all respondents to our European wide census, so that we can map where the surplus stock is and, ideally, congregate it around any place that we can access directly from a UK airport.
I would very much like to attend an international convention in Hamburg (although us British are infamously ill equipped in ‘foreign’ languages!!), but my heart sinks at the prospect of waiting ten months to get my eager hands on species such as anjunganensis,alfredi,rubrimontis or quindecim.

John

[helene schoubye]

To Russ.

This situation is what happens all the time, both in UK – Denmark, and also Germany. It is not as if the situation of bying though shops are any better here.
There are exceptions such as this recent import of p.phoenicurus, – it happens very rarely.

When I find parosphromenus in my local shops in Copenhagen I can never get a location, or if there is a location its most likely inacurate. Or the fish are not what they are said to be. Lately they have had p.gunawani (not!) and p.deissneri (not!) They sometimes even have p.deissneri, with the location Bangka (not!) … it is really difficult. I go every time to check, but I dont bye anymore unless its really really clear to me what species it is.

The import of p.phoenicurus in september in Germany was very exceptional. I would say though that identifying p.phoenicurus without locality is possible, – it is a very remarable fish with some clear markings which seperates it from other species. (see our species index)
And if it was in UK at the same time as the import in Germany, there could be good chances that it is p.phoenicurus.
However, I must say, I have also experienced that shops have a tendensy to suddenly have the same species, as if when one import is creating a lot of attention, such as the phoenicurus, – then the next time my shop gets fish its likely to be named as the last ‘popular’ import. And often isnt. For example suddenly there were p.gunawani all over, – now its p.phoenicurus (actually right now they have phoenicurus and deissneri, I should probably go and have a look 🙂 )

Living in Denmark to me probably resembles a little bit living in UK, – I have to go to Hamburg, – probably the plane to London would be faster, – but it is a lot better for me to get fish through personal contacts there than keeping on trying my luck in my local shops.

So I agree with you, and with John, we should see if there is a way to create not only something which could perhaps help here and now one time (at the international meeting) but perhaps also a more lasting structure within the project.
We have connections to for example Poland and Lituania as mentioned in the last Newsletter, where more people have joined the Project, and are forming a group helping each other, – I think it could be very relevant in UK too.

[Peter Finke]

A flashlight only:

We had for the first time ever abaout 500 true P. phoenicurus by commercial import in Germany. The import company asked the Sumatranian exporter to send some hundreds of the same species a second time; they responded: OK, we will.

Now the fish have arrived, again best condition, but no P. phoenicurus (from location Langgam); this time it’s P. spec. blue line from Sugai Tunkal (the location of “blue line”, a bintan-like variant).

What do we learn? It’s a matter of game/chance/fate what they really ship. The distinctions we make are of no importance to them. Paro = Paro.

[helene schoubye]

Have been thinking about this a little, and a few thoughts :

The Census is really important in the Parosphromenus Project, and the aim is to follow the status of each species. This is the way to get the overall picture of how any species is doing in private stocks. Secondary it gives the opportunity to see where off spring is, but this is only secondary.
To have a seperate Census would in my opinion not be good, – it would risk becoming confusing and unstructured.
It would be much better if many more from UK took part in it, – and perhaps we could ask Benjamin Wilden if it was possible to indicate which countries are involved, just by adding initials of country. Then it was possible to see who was based in UK.
But I think that we should be careful to keep the original purpose for the Census seperate from any lists of breeders or off spring.

But another thing is, – that initially when we started this homepage we had the intention of making a ‘members map’, for excatly the purpose which John is mentioning, – that it would be possible for members to see where other members live nearby.
To make this map became very difficult because some people write their adress, some dont, – some say yes its allright it can be seen public, some dont want that. And with so many countries it became really confusing. So I asked that we stopped it this way.

But this doesnt mean that I dont have maps of members, – I have just split them up in smaller areas, and they are not publicly available. But it is quite possible to make it so that a specifik group of user can access a particular map.

At present, I do have a UK map 🙂 … and I can make it so that it can be visible to a specifik group of users (UK members ? ) It is also quite possible to use this map as an information ‘tool’ – anything could be written in these maps, – it can be anonymous and say 1 person is living here, – or it can say name, adress, – you could even use it to enter who has what species – .
The problem with it now, is that for example in our adress list I have 22 mail adresses, – but only about 6 or 7 with adresses that could be put into a map.
If such a map should work, there would have to be some guidelines around it, – and it is of course also a work to be done. But I would be happy to help if you wanted to make it.

[john walsh]

I agree that it would not be good to have more than one census. But ideally THE census should at least include the City and Country in which the stock was held and the ability (restricted to members of the Paro project) to contact that person through this site’s Private Message facility. Currently some of those paro friends responding to the census may have different Paro Project ‘Names’.
I have no quarrel with the current ‘Searching for fish’ facility, but it would not necessarily help me identify, for example, how many species may be available to me within an hours drive from Hamburg on a given day if I was planning to visit with the aim of bringing back stock for other UK based Paro friends.
How fantastic would it be to have a ‘living’ (Real Time)census, where I could note, for example, last nights spawning of my P. Linkei 😉
and track their development through to numbers of juveniles and then distribution? Again, this is not meant to detract from the importance of our twice yearly census, but rather to reinforce both the urgency of our projects aims and ambitions, and the successes that we enjoy.

[helene schoubye]

🙂 yes, that would be nice, – but we have talked about this before – and its really difficult to make a trustworthy list like that, – because it has to be completely reliable.
Its not much fun if you look at the list and see someone having reported a lot of offspring but forgot to report that its half a year ago.
Which is the kind of things that happens with this kind of online things.
But the more ideas the closer we could get to creating something which works eventually.

I am very aware of the fact that our private messaging is not at all optimal, – I should see if I could make it better, – I am sure there are ways in which it could be much more flexible, its just not very easy :blink:

[john walsh]

To be fair, I think that you, Peter Finke and the other Senior Members on the Project do a great job in keeping this site a hugely valuable and accessible resource. That we can debate how to move things forward without fear of censure is an indication of how progressive the Project is. 🙂

[Benjamin Wilden]

Hey everyone,

it is a shame that I am not that present in this forum as i want to or maybe should.

Peter told me about your conversation and I think I should tell you, that the idea is really great. Everyone of us wants a real time census, but we also know that it is not possible. Some organisations tried similar things. The basis is a little tool of he homepage, where you can report your stock. Than you have important things to do and will never give an update to the stock. I did for years in the IGL and only a memory-letter made me update it for the reason of a real census.
So like Helene said it is not reliable. You will see the census has a great fluktuation of members and fishes, so this is our hobby. As a hobby noone has the fishes as the priority.
I think our system is established and a lot of people are taking part, because there is a memory-letter and a fixed time (there are still members without internet). Little changes are possible and the evolution oft he census is going on, but it seems like the simplest way ist the best.
I can collect or include some data like the location, but like Helene said, there was no request for the map and she maybe has some data for someone intrested.

Best wishes,

Bennie (Benjamin Wilden)

[Author]

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