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Thank you, Helene, for your opinion.
And please don’t get me wrong – I do not want to argue – I want to understand!
And also, again, Stefanie, – I would like to say – even now, – I could have my personal conviction 🙂 … but it would never be anything else than that.
I really dont know more than what I have written, – this fish has signs which is confusing, – the male signs are there, but they are not clear and certain. A male would by now have developed a colour band in the other fins, it does not have that as far as I can see.
The female signs are also there, and I think more dominating.Ok, Helene – that’s an answer I understand!! Thank you.
You see – if you say “on this photo there’s clearly a male” and then “on this photo it’s clearly a female” – and for my non-expert’s eyes it’s the same fish with only slighty different colour marks …….. then I don’t understand how such mutually exclusive opinions can arise. Then I ask for concrete reasons that make you say “male” oder “female” – because I don’t see the difference.
But what you said now – you see female and male attributes, none of them really convincing – then I understand, because that’s what I see daily – and what I’m daily wondering about ……….
So really, what has been the exellent learning from your fish is .. what an experienced person as Martin already was aware of, – some few fish can be like this, – a dominant female in a flock of only females could obviously show slight male caracteristics. This is one thing that I will then definitely take with me on other occasions when trying to id a fish.
I have learned something here 🙂
And secretly I would still hope that your female decided to be a true male 🙂 because that would be so much nicer for you 🙂 but if its not..its not !I was looking at your location on the map, – you should not be too far away from some of our members who could supply you with fish that were more certain, both in regards to species and sex. Buying in shops is always risky in one way or other, most times anyway.
Someone in Denmark just bought some fish which were all males 🙁 …
And I have certainly done that too.Yes, I think that’s something I have learned now, too ……….. I will never again buy fish from a store, at least if I am not convinced to get both sexes. And I have learned how “easy” the determination of sexes is 😉
But something I would really appreciate – that this should be told in the many advices you get about how to determine the sexes of paros: that the possibility of having dominant females which appear to be males is always given, at least in some forms/ species. If you read about sexual determination of paros, it always seems relatively easy to do: males have coloured unpaired fins, female never have. If you can’t see it clearly (for example because the fish are ancious in the tank of a fish store) – then take a torch with you, and you will see the colouration of the males.
And really – this is not right, not as a general rule. There should be hints that something like what I experienced can always happen – that females seem to be males, at least in non-expert’s eyes……Yes, I agree, we could include this in the describtions, – however I think I would never say that one could really safely determine the sex of a paro seen in the shop before buying. I would never myself feel certain that I could see that, there are too many factors there that makes it uncertain – and a frightened paro is so difficult. Plus unknown age makes it difficult as well. So theres no safe way to aquire a ‘pair’ of paros, as you may find with other species. I have tried to say to my local fishshop 🙂 .. I would like to buy a pair of this paro… and they do know I am joking, because thats simply too difficult in most cases.
And I think we should also remember that this situation is an unusual one, – and not a general rule, – but it could of course be mentioned that it is a possibility, I think it should, – and I will certainly be aware of it in future advice.
I put all four of them back together again in one tank – it makes no sense in keeping two and two apart – and all are supposedly females.
And here are three of them, happily reunited again:
Current status:
The two bigger ones have claimed different sides of the tank – one stays on the left side in a shelter, the other on the right side under a leaf. Both show the same dark fin colouration and tail pattern now.
Both attack and chase the two smaller ones if they come too near to the right or left side. Both big ones only watch each other, they don’t swim into the other’s territory, and they don’t chase each other. Watching each other, they stand in a head-down angle on opposite sides, their colours turning dark.This is what the two bigger ones look like now – the biggest being a bit darker than the other one:
No iridescent colour bands – but still very dark for a female. Connected with the behaviour reported above I have a question: Do paro females show territorial behaviour? Do they claim territories and defend them?
This is how the two smaller ones look like:
The different body colouration is no artefact – the bigger ones are golden and black, the smaller ones silvery and black.
I learned a lot of new facts from the thread “Territorial behaviour ….”
I move my question – connecting the newly learned aspects with my observations of my new paros – here, to keep it apart from the generally interesting facts in the other thread:
With regard to behaviour, my 4 “aliens” show both kinds of aggressive behaviour – the more “male” way, side-by-side, head down, colours (stripes and fins) turning very dark. And the more “female” way, chasing and nipping each other.
What seems more important to me – a deduction I make from my observations of the nagyi-pair – is the fact that I have seen no sexy eyes until now, in none of the fish. In the nagyi male I observed that males show sexy eyes very early when they are interested in a female – even if she is totally dismissive.
At present I think that Martin Hallmann is right and I have only females – because I believe that a male – even as small as the smallest of my fish – would have already shown sexy eyes in the presence of a female.
At least I believe that my fish belong to one sex only – even if it were all males, they wouldn’t show sexy eyes, either.What do you think of my “theory”?
Latest news:
The two big ones – which have been watching each other from their opposite territories for the last days – had a heavy quarrel this evening. They attacked each other by rapidly swimming frontally towards the other, ramming each other, circeling around each other – all of this really fast and very hard to follow with your eyes.
The two smaller ones – which still show no sign of a similar pattern in the unpaired fins, especially the caudal fin is cristal clear – watched them very interested from a safe distance.
Immediately after the fight the two bigger fish looked like this:
The first (former the biggest, the “mysterious” fish I have shown many times before):
And the second, which in the meantime shows the same pattern:
Watched from above by one of the smaller ones:
I still (and again) dare to hope to have two pairs …… I think the two bigger ones are still not fully mature, but are males – the two smaller ones being females.
What do you think?Its really interesting photoes, – but no, I have to admit, I am more certain than ever that this is indeed a dominant female.
The fish does show extraordinary strong and intense colours now, thats quite clear. But in this kind of mood, where it is obvious that the fish is really showing strong colours, it is not showing typical ‘male’ colours. If a male, in this mood, (strongly aroused, strongly agressive or something else) there would be much stronger colours in the bands all fins. Clearly and visible. This fish at this point is showing the optimal for whats possible for it, and that is just not ‘male’- like.
I have seen females become this kind of ‘darkish’ black-ish when in really bad mood, or really fighting with other females.
And even the way the fish fight in some way seems to me to be more ‘female-fight’ than male show off. I have experienced females being really nasty to each other in the way you describe. They can really attack each other. Males .. maybe they do it too, but I think they more show off to each other than actually go after each other..Hi Stefanie,
in my opinion, all your pictures show females. As far as my experience goes, females of some species can show this dark coloration (esp. the dominant ones) in the abscence of males.
Here’s a female of my bintan variant that your fish reminds me of:
If you had a male in your group, I think he would have to look like this, with all the females around:
…or like this:
You know whar I mean? …I think males can easily be identified by their strong contrast that females never show. …At least, if they are well acclimatized and in good condition.
Greetings,
MartinThanks Helene,
it’s a bintan form from trade that was sold as deissneri. Perhaps it’s similar to the Blue-Line fish that were sold a few years ago. This name would make sense for it’s got a really broad blue banding in the unpaired fins. Really nice! Unfortunately we don’t know where they come from.
I bought 8, but got only this single male and 7 females. …They are spawning at the moment 🙂 .Good night,
Martin
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