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My friend and I bought 9 of these fish from the AAGB meeting a few weeks ago.
They are described as P deissneri and from a usually reliable source.
I understand that the real deissneri is virtually never imported so I am keen to know whether the fish could be the real one.
Attached is a video of one of the males – he has eggs in a film canister now.
[video]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIrxQzkmY3I&feature=youtu.be[/video]
Hi Paul.
🙂 i hate to be like this :). But its really impossible to say from this video. You need to get him in a full flashing position – at least for mé to tell.
I am not sure, I have before been too quick to give an opinion :), but I used to have a male of The Real deissneri and he could look like this. But its not very far from some of The other species such as p. Sentang, p, ‘blue Line’ and maybe others. One of the characteristics which for me would be certain would be how the line in The caudal fin is, is it a broad band or more like drops of white ? And is The tail really pointed with this small spike or does it just look so when its a little folded as it is in the video. It should be there also when he is flashing 🙂
You might have a look at the video which I have posted here in https://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/forum/15-Scene/1161-Køge-Aquarium-messe-2012–Aquarium-fair-Copenhagen.htmlIn The middle of this film, although its dark and maybe not so good, but there you can see my male deissneri – maybe it can help some
It is very praiseworthy that Paul is attentive to this question and examines this case. For we have nearly lost real deissneri. The only living pair spawns regularly but the larvae don’t develop. It’s a pity.
Helene is fully right, however; it is not possible to determine this fish clearly by this video. But it is highly improbable that it is a real deissneri. Why?
1. The real male deissneri is more longish in its bodily appearance than this fish;
2. The turquoise bands in his unpaired fins are strikingly special among all other members of this genus and they are very conspicuous in their dotted composition. They must be recognizable even with fins partly not spread because they lie in the middle of the fins’ width.
3. The tail is elongated and bears a black filament.
4. The ventrals have rather long filaments.
None of these very special markers are to be seen with the fish in the video. In my opinion it is an ordinary spec. Sentang.
The only reason why one could have second thoughts on this matter is that the fish was bought at an AAGB meeting. Allan Brown bred real deissneri over many years and distributed all of them in Britain and Germany some years ago. There is a slight chance that there might be offspring of these fish still to be found. But it is unlikely, however. The name “deissneri” says nothing. All people who don’t know exactly what they talk about, abd especially the fish trade , call nearly all licorice gouramis like this.
Nevertheless it was fully right that Paul calls attention to thus case. Why? See above.Thanks Helene and Peter for your comments.
I am pretty sure now that they are not P deissneri.
I have got a better video of the male tending to his fry, this will hopefully allow someone better than me to say what Paro this one is. I ahve removed the fry from the male today into a rearing tank of their own. The male has been an excellent father and has hardly left the cave for more than a few seconds the whole time since the eggs were laid.
[video]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CT5tEy94AI&feature=youtu.be[/video]Any of the experts here can help with the ID of these fish, hopefully this and the previous video can help identify them.
I now have about 10 free swimming fry from these growing on in a tank of their own.
I would also say as Peter (and I am not as much specialist as he) but still, that it looks really like spec. sentang.
I will post a few images of mine, – they look really very much like yours
Helene,
Thank you for your answer and photo’s.
I agree with you my fish look very much like yours.
However, what is spec. sentang? I don’t see that listed in the Species list on the site.
You will find a page dedicated to P.spec. sentang under the menu ‘Other forms’ – however, we have not yet filled it out with text. But you can find a few images there. We are gathering as much information as we can about not only this, but all those other spec. forms that you can see in the menu ‘other forms’
All I can say, is that it is one of the yet not completely described species, – and this would be the reason why it is called spec. There are quite a number of different forms which have not been described yet,- and this is one of them.
I am not sure where it is mainly found, but I am sure Peter can tell you more about this.Thanks Helene – I had not even seen that page before, how did I miss such a big part of the site 🙂
I will have a good look through this section.
As the movies of Paul are regarded you can say nothing. They are too bad. You even cannot tell about the structure of the caudal fin which seems to be rounded but maybe a bit elongated, too. Real deissneri have nearly rhombishly formed cauadal with a clear black filament. And you cannot tell about the structure of the turquoise bands in the unpaired fins by that movies.
In order to identify licorice gouramis with turquoise bands in these fins by photos (that is to say bintan or realtives of bintan or deissneri) you need to have very big, very clear photos. And even then it is not possible in any case.
The only reason why I write this here in this clear words and logitude is a v e r y n e w information: last week with 99% certainty the real deissneri have been found in an import by a big German wholesaler, for the firt time. This is quite unusual. The fish have been called deissneri by the Asian exporter (from Singapore) but this is the usual naming, and so the German importer thought “O well, deissneri are never deissneri, so I shall call them “deissneri” or bintan.” But then somebody who knows (Martin Hallmann) visited the import station and identified the fish as the real deissneri! Immediately after Martin told me and since then we try to organize a German network of breeders in order to secure these fish and to get them bred. Therefore we have now, since the beginning of this current week, the possibility of real deissneri appearing in pet shops everywhere in Europe since the big wholesaler distributes his fish nearly to every country in Europe.
To prevent disorder and chaos but to use that chance of getting that much sought after species, you should obey some simple rules:
1. Have a very close look to fish in the aquarium trade called deissneri or bintan.
2. Ask for the date when they have been arrived. If before November 15th then they are probably not deissneri.
3. If the source of the fish is Glaser/Rodgau (Germany) or the exporter is a Singapore company then you could be lucky.
4. The structure of the body should be slightly elongated. The fish are rather big compared with other species.
5. The colours of the males have not been very clear last week. But they should be in the meantime in a darker surrounding. Then the typical dotted appearance of the bands in the unpaired fins, especially composed of little separated streaks in the caudal, should be to be seen.
6. The caudal especially in the males is not rounded but slightly rhombish and bears are clear short black filament.A word to the “other forms”:
– There are more than the 18 species presently described scientifically. Note, that Kottelat and Ng in their recent publication from 2005 (!) needed years to describe species that have been known many years before as distinct from others. The whole procedure often needs much time.
– We have prepared a long list of such other forms that have become known since the seventies of last century. Unfortunately we have not been able to write all necessary texts explaining that forms up to now. But only a few of them are actually important. We shall put in short descriptions of these forms only at first, and that will happen in the next weeks.
– It is necessary to have such forms in mind since most of the traded Paros are caught on Sumatra and belong to those other forms. Mind that some Paro experts often have fish they caught themselves or close friends from well-known places (or offspring of them bred by friends), that means: with a clear location and naming. But most others have only fish from the trade. And these fish are often factually other forms, although they are called (by the trade-people) a species name the one way or the other in order to get them sold. Most of those forms are very similar to each other. But you need to keep them separate as long as you don’t know exactly.
– One of the most traded “other form” is spec. Sentang (or sometimes wrongly called “sintangensis”). Another is “blue line” (this trade-name tells us: “I do not kwnow what it is but the fish has blue markings”. This is no clarification whatsoever). Most of the traded “deissneri” belong to those other forms. It is quite a new experience that the true deissneri might be among them.
– Most of that “other forms” (but not all) are probably bintan or close relatives to bintan. But as long as we don’t know exactly we have to keep them separate in any case and, if ever possible, use their preliminary “other-forms-name”!Correction: I have to report a major error. What I wrote in italics in the previous posting was wrong. Sad to say, but expert Martin Hallmann made a mistake in identifying those fish as being the true deissneri “with 99 % certainty or something still more rare”. But what should be more rare than deissneri?
In fact, they are a variant of filamentosus, we call them cf. filamentosus. They look like that old photo of Karen Koomans on our species page; that mal with the blue dorsal.
How could that happen? Well, the animals showed nearly not colours at all. They were in poor health by the stress they had to overcome and therefore neraly only structural markers could be taken into account: rather long dorsals and anals, a slim long body and – above all – a rhombic formed tail with a black filament. I do not kwnow why filamentosus have not been taken in consideration; they have a structure near to that of the true deissneri; only colouring is completely different, But that was missing.
Fastly a German seller (Tropicwater, Mainhausen, D) had bought the whole bunch and offered it as being deissneri. In the meantime that is altered in the right denomination cf. filamentosus. They are very interesting, rare animals, and we suggest all who are interested to buy some of these rare variant. One could do so by writing a mail to info@tropicwater.eu They deliver to foreign countries, too.
We have to say sorry for that wrong information and try to learn from it. In any case it were good intentions that all people involved pursued. Even a very good expert can be mistaken in a borderline case. So, we still have to wait for that moment when the true deissneri will appear in the trade first, at least in Europe. I doubt very much that the so-called deissneri that are named in lists for the U-S., for example, are really referring to that species which is endemic on Bangka island. So far as we know nobody from the fish trade is catching there commercially. And the destruction of the habitats is going on as it is elsewhere.
It is sad to hear about real deissneri but very good to hear that they are a form of filamentosus, and completely unknown til now. Imagine that they could have been lost without us ever knowing about them..and probably others.
We can only hope that the real deissneri is yet to return to the rescue mission we are on.
I have the time but of course not the money or would go to Bangka and find them!! what a dream.[quote=”tedsomd” post=1361]We can only hope that the real deissneri is yet to return to the rescue mission we are on.
I have the time but of course not the money or would go to Bangka and find them!! what a dream.[/quote]Two German friends have decided to go to Bangka next year and pursue that only aim to bring the true deissneri back to us. During the last week they thought it might be unnecssary now, but things have changed: it will be necessary again. And promising and adventurous. As you said. Since not many people from Europe go there. And no catchers of the East-Asian fish-trade, obviously. Until now …
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