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It is not unusual that the courting and additional spawning may take place, even the eggs are still developing in the nest, – so it does not nessesarely mean the eggs have deteriorated.
But of course, could also be so.One thing is certain, – once started, your little male will continue ..
And maybe another one, not bad 🙂
Are you saying that it is possible to spawn twice in the same nest? (or) He could spawn again in the other cave? A funny little guy! I put another cave in there and he checked it out immdiatly.
He is following the females with pink bellies but I have not seen him go back to the original nest at all yet today.
Oh well I am certainly learning about Parvulus !!!!
Thank you, your experiences with them is priceless!
I only have 2 species now but the Parvulus are on top of the list…could it be called personality?
What I have found is that there are differences, – sometimes a male will have a full nest and guard it very careful. I have a nagyi male, – he is very faithful, – I see him out of the cave maybe once every 3 weeks, – just for a day, – then he is back again on another clutch of eggs, and he has an extremely good ‘rate’ of succes, many offsprings.
Then other males, and you are right, young ones can be a bit insecure, – but they build the nest with a few bubbles, get a female to produce some eggs, then the next day rush off to get the female to come again, and produce more eggs.
I think on the little video I once uploaded of the linkei couple, the pair was mating while there were larvaes hanging from the first spawning. https://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/forum/27-Undetermined/1173-video-of-attempted-spawning.html#1204So what I am saying is, – that yes, he might continue the spawning in the same nest, – with or without eggs from the day before (they may have gone these eggs, – or they may still be there) – he may add to them.
I have never seen a male having two wives though 🙂But I have seen one male getting either worried, or confused about too many caves, and actually moving eggs from one to the other.
:whistle: Well, I admit to being a parvulus admirer .. they are my favorite
I am back to the net, having visited a foreign university, and a hardware failure prevented me from joining your discussions during the last week.
Let me add some points, Helene did mention the most important things quite correctly before:– P. parvulus is just as P. ornaticauda one of the two species with a very deviating behaviour scheme. That fluttering of the fins and that “courtship dance” of the male with heads up is remarkable within the genus.
– Presently we know at least two or three variants according to the locations: animals from Tangkiling, from Babugus, and from the surroundings of Palangkaraya. The differ a little in the colouring of the male’s unpaired fins. Some are more reddish (Babugus), some more blackish (Tangkiling) and some in-between (Palangkaraya).
– The scientific describer of the species, Dr. Jörg Vierke (Germany) was unable to breed it himself at that time (forty years ago). It was too difficult.
– Even the first who bred it, German master breeder Günter Kopic (see his website http://www.guenter-kopic.de) and his article in the “Amazonas”-issue) was nearly unable to do so. He was successfull only when he lowered the pH to just below 3.0 (!!). And then he observed that the larvae had difficulties to slip out of the egg-shells.
– Later breeders did not observe the same problems, only pH was critical in nearly every case. I have observed several spawnings, but always the eggs disappeared after two days. Only when I lowered the pH to below 4.0 this stopped. A clear indication that the eggs are very delicate and sensible to germ-aggression.
– Often, parvulus breeds again when the previous larvae have not left the cave yet. You find larvae and fresh eggs mixed together.
– The eggs are remarkably big for that small species and the larvae sometime take freshly hatched (!!) brine shrimp naupliae of the Califormia brand (the smallest( !). Bust mostly you have to start feeding with Rotatoriae (better) or Paramecium (mostly these suffice).
– The flower pots are much too big for that species. Additionally, they have the disadvantage of their ceiling being often not horizontally situated, so that the bubbles and the eggs tend to slip out. P. ornaticauda and P. parvulus like the smalles caves of all Parosphromenus species; mine habe an opening of less than half an inch (1,5 cm). It’s no surprise that the male accepted the bamboo-cave at once.
– Place the cave at any rate that way that you could easily look into it with a torch.
– There are breeders who usually take the cave out and place it in a separate tank with exactly the same water. Often, it is taken out by shutting the opening witha finger including the caring male and everything goes on in the new tank. But the safer way is certainly as Helene suggested: catch the old out of the tank.
– At any rate let the male do its caring work until the larvae begin to swim horizontally. During the last days before they dash around within the cave and the male has a lot to do catching them and placing them at the ceiling again. When they swim correctly, this behaviour ends. Its a matter of one day. You must try to find the right moment.
– Do not try to raise eggs yourself. It’s possible but very difficult. The germs will destroy everything. You must use antibacterial means. The care of the male is the best alternative.
– Nevertheless: just with parvulus, there are often young growing together with the parents in the same tank if there is much hiding structure especially at the bottom (peat, leaves). Try it, but be patient (as Helene says)for at least three or four weeks. You will find no young in that time, but probably they are there nevertheless. And they must find nourishment!
– If you have a spawning pair it will repeat that spawning behaviour very often. So, not be disappointed if the first will fail for some reasons. But you should find out for what and change it.
– Water changing is good, but I should be careful about it during the first weeks of the larvae and young. I soemtimes change no water for about eight weeks in a small 10-liter-tank in that situation, if plants (as Ceratopteris, but growing, not simply present!) work as hygienic factors. P. parvulus is, if the general conditions are good not very delicate.
– Congratulations. Having success with the breeding of P. parvulus indicates that you are on the right track! The experience with breeding thiose two slim species is mixed. Most report it as difficult, but some report it as easy. Myself, I found ornaticauda difficult each time, but parvulus easy. The explanation is probably: It depends on the fish-individuals. There are pairs that make things easy, and there are others who even don’t begin with it at all. But we are not sure. It’s a hypothesis. Anyway, if you have a spawning pair of parvulus, you are lucky and should try to make more of them!Thank you Peter. Nothing will keep me away from these amazing little fish!
I have been keeping fish for 49 years now, and think I have finally found the one type, Paros!!After watching them for days now, the fish are not the Babugus form. The male
seemed to show more red at first, but is definately the more common or normal form.
It is too bad though that the dealer will not reveal or does not know the source of the fish or locations of their capture, but I do understand his business is retail distribution.the suspect second male showed his colors tonight! I supected he was “in hiding” as a male but the give-away seemed to be the bright electric blue boarders on his unpaired fins, all else looked identical to the females.
Very pleased with getting 2 pairs out of a random scoop of six fish.
In my experience the female parvenus has excatly this bright blue border – and you may see it only in certain lights – 🙁 … but I wouldn’t be completely sure its a male.
It is a male, thats what I meant by he showed his colors …. full courtship display.
But privious to the display that is one that I suspected only because of the brilliance of the fin borders (more so than the others)… I was not aware the females carry that much of the color too. I have not yet seen that on the others(only very thin color borders). Of course when we buy wild caught they could be at any age.
As I told in another context, when males are absent dominant females could appear similar to subdominant males and exhibit certain colour features that they don’t show normally (even in the caudal, dorsal and anal fins). I remember to have seen this very clearly in a “widow” of a deceased male P. tweediei. The extreme is P. ornaticauda, where females in normal courtship appear temporarily just like males, even with the red flame in the caudal fin. I remember the first time when I saw this: I thought that there were two males in the tank, but I remembered to have put a pair into it. It was a pair.
But it’s a completely different thing with parvulus. The females never dress like males. Only in the absence of males some could show that bluish fine borderline of the anal and dorsal fin. It’s obviously a matter of different location forms: the one do it, the other not. Since P. patvulus is probably the Paro with the most comprehensive occurrence, these differentiations are very likely to have occurred in the evolution of this species generating variants that still belong to the same species, however.
New problem today.
I had a second spawning this morning. It was a mess. Eggs were stuck all over, not organized and were eaten shortly later.
Would this be because of 2 males wanting to spawn? Would one destroy the others nest or interfere??
My only option is to seperate them but I dont have a tank ready. I could put a pair in a 2 gallon jar, same water setup etc. I have seen no fighting but if a female is ready I’m sure there has to be some problems with 2 males also ready… or might I be safe until the tank is prepaired?
I have always given the advice to put one pair in a small tank (10-20 liters) if you want to breed licorice gouramies. But there are many people who don’t think of breeding, only of keeping nice aquariums with a group of those fish, and then you will get this problem.
To solve it you can only separate the pairs. In the present setting success of only one of them is not sure. The gallon jar could be a temporary solution.
There are only two perfect possible solutions: Either, you concentrate on one good pair and give the others away. Or you set up more tanks. Breeding tanks should be small (see above). I have no technical devices in them, even no filter. But then you must use good growing swimming Ceratopteris, java moss and the like. And you must be prepared to change water regularly every week. Two or three small tanks of this kind equal less than one big tank. And you could compare different pairs in their breeding success.
As for a short period of time, untill you get the tank ready, I think there will be no danger to any of the fish, – but of course obviously one of them will attempt this spawning which seems to be problematic with two. But I have never experienced ‘serious’ damage with paroes like other labyrinths. Provide maybe some extra plants or something.
I just had the experience with having four juveniles together and wondering why they didn’t seem to be doing very well, – a bit pale, scatterer, one not coming to eat and so… so I seperated them in two pairs, and voila 🙂 .. they all coloured up, and one pair spawned the next day. So I do think you are right that seperation is the next step and will give more peace and harmony.
Its interesting though, – that I have 3 P. nagyi in a small tank – 12 litter – one female and her two sons, and because I dont know which ‘son’ she preferres I kept them together, – and theres now about 5-6 off spring in the tank also. So sometimes its not such a problem. But i also have a tank almost totally filled up with java moss growth 🙂
Interesting behavior today with the Parvulus:
The male has begun “dancing” today… very intense colors this evening. I noticed a nice plump female folowing him, and would actually attack him and chase him. Nothing serious but I assume she is ready now and he is not quite?? Funny behavior (interesting). Every time I watch these little guys, something new shows up !!! again, what a fascinating fish!!
The other spawnings occured in the mornings so I am hoping that tomorrow I’ll have another brood.
Also I have lowered the pH to a bit below 4.0 as recommended by others here.
I was able to witness the complete Parvulus mating dance today!! Amazing!
Unfortunatly it seems they are spawning under an oak leaf and I will not be able to observe the nest, and egg developement, as I am afraid to disturb the leaf.
Maybe if lucky he might move it all to a cave?Oh well, I hope to someday see babies. I did drop the pH to 3.5 in time for this spawning.
15 minutes later:
So they haven’t spawned yet and I moved the leaf enough that I’m hoping he selects the cave. She is quite plump and very yellowish ,sticking close to him.
hour later:
Both fish have moved to the cave! I just moved (had to put my hand in the tank to move it… they both ignored me) the leaf he liked is now resting on top of the Bamboo. They are in the cave now so I’m staying away, I’ll know how well they did if he begins quarding the entrance and running in and out.
Everything you do is rightly done. Now you only can hope that spawning will take place.
P. parvulus often likes to spawn unser a leaf. Often in this case one is unable to locate eggs because of the mass of the leaves. And if they don’t spawn under leaves but do it in a firm cave, then – possibly – they transfer the eggs under a leaf, later. Or from one leaf to another. The parvulus like especially very small caves only with half an inch or less in diameter.
I hope that this time you placed the cave in such a way that you could easily inspect it with a torch. If not, you surely could correct it now with the male in it. But correct it in slight steps only. One a day.
Reducing the pH to 3.5 is a right action, too. Now the danger of an aggression to eggs by germs is much reduced. Nevertheless you must control the eggs (if there are some). They must stick under the ceiling of the cave, not lie down on its bottom. The last will inevitably result in egg-loss. But the first might also, by unknown reasons. But all you can do against it has been done.
If the eggs lie on the bottom of the cave, this is most likely caused by water too hard. But I don’t think that this will be the case in your tank; otherwise you could not reduce the pH to such a value.
If they spawn and there are eggs on the ceiling cared for by the male, then you must control whether larvae hatch. At first the larvae look like longish eggs. But some days later they become more longish and blackish, and the they sometimes move, but still fixed at the cave’s ceiling. The male is the best guard for them. Taking them out in this stage mostly results in loss. You cannot substitute the intense care of a caring male.
There are three methods to proceed after about a week. First, leave everything as it is, the adult fish included. I should recommend that if there is much of hiding place on the bottom of your tank. The pair will spawn several times. Second, you could take the adukt pair out, but only after the young have left the cave. This would increase the surviving prospects of the young. But normally adult parvulus tolerate young at their side. Third, you could pipe out the young that dash around in the cave into a small jar with exactly the same water and frequnet water change. But then the controlled feeding is most important: not too little, not too much. Perhaps you should do so with a later spawning in order to have a second chance.
At any rate you need patience now. It sometimes needs four weeks or more (!) before you see any young. Good luck!
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