RO water and PH

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Much needed advise please

I am using RO water as a base for the tanks setups. I will be contacting the RO manufacturer today also.

I have Oak Leaves, Driftwood and Indian Almond Leaves all soaked in the tanks.

I also percolated Peat Moss and get very dark water.
The problem is, instead of Ph going down, it creeps up to approx 7.0

Any suggestions to reduce the Ph??
Possibly a malfunction in my RO Filter operation?
Im really at a loss, never had this situation before and will not order fish til this is resolved.

I use the API liquid test and a digital Ph meter which is calibrated.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I am tempted to use a bit of vinegar as a reducing agent but am unsure how stable that would be.

[Patrick Guhmann]

Hello,

I know this problem – no fish, just plants, bubble filter, RO-water plus peat, lava and leaf litter on the ground – pH at 7!

The pH often decreases when nitrification starts. Just put some fish in and feed…pH at 7 do not harm Paros and pH will decrease in a few weeks.

Greetings
Patrick

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Thank you Patrick,

I also just removed all the subsrate in tank #1. Added 36 hour old RO at a pH of 6.3. Replaced leaves and driftwood and will monitor that setup.

I have the exact setup that you have mentioned !

[helene schoubye]

I have not really found that anything worked satisfactory regarding lowering ph and keeping it low, untill I learned of the product called ‘eichen-extract’. That is really working.
Before that I found that even with reverse osmosis I had to fill in lots and lots of peat or peat granules in order to lower the ph measurable, and it took long time.
I also found that having any kind of gravel is working against low ph, – many things that you have in tanks, such as gravel, will contribute to making the ph rise again. For this reason I dont use that anymore, but rather spagnum / peat, or just lots of leaves, or spagnum granula for bottom. This seems to work well also.

I dont actually think its your RO filter operation which isnt working, – it sounds too familiar 🙂
Lowering ph can be really tricky and not that easy untill you find just that thing that works for you, – and if its leaves and peat, – you really need to use quite a lot for it to work.

And I guess small things can influence it so that ph slowly rises again, – like the food you put in the tank daily. For this reason I always rinse the artemia, first in normal water, then I use RO water to flush them out of the tiny net and into a small container. Then I use a syringe – but I dont want to everyday put like 5 ml of hard water into the small 12 liter tanks, – that I think would eventually bring ph up again. It takes very very little amounts of hard water to change the water
parameters.

And I would say, – that, yes, – maybe paros can live in water of ph 7, but they thrive much better in lower, – for a long time I kept it at 6, couldnt get it lower, – and a few fish did produce fry, – but now, when I am getting used to 4.5 its so obvious that they thrive much better, – a side ‘problem’ is that you do get too many offsprings. 🙂

[Peter Finke]

We always come across the borders of the structure of an aquarium. It’s completely different than the natural biotopes we try to rebuild in part. Helene makes a good suggestion: Eichen-Extrakt. This is a name (oak-extract) of several German products of different unclear composition (?) which I use sucessfully since years. The main ingredient is phosphoric acid maybe together with humic substances, additionally. While plant-aquarists mock about it (I could understand them) it’s quite a different thing with fish-aquarists. If your aim is to lower pH for longer periods with little expense, it’s a very good method. But beware, some drops only suffice. You must control the pH very closely.
Rising pH can be caused by several causes. The main cause in a normal planted aquarium is the activity of plants which is hard to control. In a blackwater aquarium they must play a minimum role. Therefore floating Ceratopteris is of major value with leaves mostly on the water surface and nevertheless very active roots for taking the excess nitrogen ou of the water. Another cause is gravel or wood. It can hardly be normed. The best is fresh wood from peat regions that has never dried out. Gravel should be used in minimum heights only (in my tanks a few millimeters as a settlement base for nitrification bacteria), for normal planting is out in a blackwater tank.
So, my advice is to take phosphoric acid or a brand of “Eichen-Extrakt” in very small doses. Peat is difficult. The reason is nature on the one hand and the trade on the other. Peat regions are all different. And the trade is not transparent; what sort of peat they use and what they are mixing it with is entirely unclear. Therefore there is very good peat and very bad. Even some natural peat contains substances that lead to pH-rise, although it seems to be ridiculous. You must test the peat beforehand if it is conveniant or not. Take the acid und you are on the right side.

[Patrick Guhmann]

Hello Peter,

Krause (1998) describes that breaking carbonate hardness with (strong) acids changes the Ion-composition of the water. As a result some fish-species do not breed when the Ion relativity is too far away from standard water. He uses the german term “aquaristischer Kuntsfehler”. You say that Parosphromenus are not sensitiv in thar way to “Eichenextrakt”, do you have experiences with HCL? I used “Eichenextrakt” in an experiment without fish and it led to an strong increase of the conductivity, so I dont use it to lower pH. I only use peat, conductivity rises only a little bit. But it takes a lot of time untill pH goes down. It seems that fishes help to lower pH (more nitrification?, CO2?).

Greetings
Patrick

Krause (1998): Handbuch Aquarienwasser 6.Auflage. Bede-Verlag

[Peter Finke]

Patrick, I know Krause well, his books and him personally since the seventies. His views are somewhat personal; I followed some hot discissions he had with Kaspar Horst. Krauses views are fully attached to the problems of the normal planted aquarium with average water. Blackwater or peat water aquaria are to be taken quite differently. What in the normal tank is a “Kunstfehler”, could be quite right in the aquarium with fish which need low pH. (By the way: Parosphromenus don’t “need” low pH, but there is hardly another means of keeping germ growth beyound a tolerable limit, in nature as well. The licorice have adapted to those conditions). You could breed P. ornaticauda for instance (which is a more sophisticated species) with pH 3.0, but with pH 6.3 as well, the latter only if you succeed to keep the germs at a very low level (which is difficult with a pH like this!).
Surely, there are different qualities of “Eichenextrakt”, too, as there are different qualities of traded peat. I admit that. Indeed there are some which let the conductivity rise, you are right. But mostly there are no problems like this. I use that brand which is called “following the receipt of Hans Stein”. And you could use pure phosphoric acid. But once more: In a planted aquarium with many active plants things are to be seen quite differently. I should never work with acids there.
I don’t know whether fish “help” to lower the pH, and I have no experience with HCl.

[Patrick Guhmann]

Thank you Peter. Now I think I give Eichenextrakt a new chance… 🙂

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Interesting comments.
Peter mentioned “Oak Extract” well, I can tell you that my test bucket with Oak leaves is a lower pH than the test with Oak, driftwood and Indian Almond leaves, although the Oak has less tannin coloring. Unfortunately I did not test the driftwood and Almonds seperately. I suspect the driftwood (mopani wood)is highest in tannins but not in acidity.

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