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I have transferred the last chain of postings with Jacob which were more and more concentrating on chocolate gouramis to this new place. This place is just designed for such things: a harbour for discussions that are most interesting and relevant in a wider perspective but somehow special and not focussing on licorice gouramis. But to say it once more: This discussion is most relevant in its central issues to Parosphromenus too, for it’s on the question how to establish and care for a tank specially designed for blackwater fish. Helene, webmaster
I have been following this interesting thread, but havent had time enough to make any comments. But I think it is really interesting and I am also learning quite a lot.
I would just like to comment a little on the thoughts about the chocolate gourami social behaviour and whether or not to have more or less in a tank.
In Denmark I know a few people who has had, and still have chocolate gouramies with succes, and spawnings as well, and the interesting thing about their succes is that they keep them in small flocks rather than single pairs. It seems that chokolate gouramies really need to be in a flock in order to thrive. And not even in too big tanks – as long as there are several individuals, this seems to ‘flatten’ out the agressive behaviour, and the fish can make a certain hieraki which stabilizes the whole flock.
Anyway, I know the main theme of this thread is not this, but I just thought I would mention it.Thanks for the tip, I am a huge fan of chocolate gouramis and there does seem to be some mystery about how they can be kept without killing each other.
It happens again and again with fish it seems, keep them in big enough groups and they are happier. Obviously tons of exceptions, but in fish stores I see big tanks with lots of schooling fish and some ctenopoma acutirostre, and the ctenopoma are active and out in the open. With no other fish around they are aggressive to each other and hide constantly.
And with African cichlids it’s always recommended (or often recommended) to crowd them.
But that’s a little different than keeping a group of one species in the social arrangement they would form naturally in the wild. Then again that probably is the social arrangement African cichlids have in the wild, tons of different species everywhere and lots of commotion.
Introducing the gouramis together all at once, and getting a group that is young might be helpful. Like with piranhas, they will be less likely to kill each other if they have a familiarity that starts at a formative or pliable period of their life. I had a male and female microctenopoma ansorgii in a 5 gallon, the male bullied the female and eventually they bred and after that all the fish tolerated each other, the young were not eaten either.
I wonder if crowding chocolate gouramis helps, in a bigger tank with room to make the school looser, maybe they aren’t forced to tolerate each other and live in a truce. My tank has a root structure, several roots overlapping, and a layer of water sprite, and will have lots of almond leaves, I’m thinking this will give chocolate gouramis hiding places, close proximity to each other, and a safe feeling that will maybe contribute to less aggression. I am going to get information soon from the supplier of these fish to help know what they do that works.Yes, theres a difference to the crowded tanks you see in shops, here I think its simply because all natural reactions is really put out of working, – so the hierakies does not make sense. But once in a tank with better conditions, the fish changes behaviour. But with the chocolates, its different, – as I also found it with Betta albimarginata, having one pair is no good, but a small flock works.
If you want at some point to set up a chocolate tank and need some really good advice, you could start another thread and I might be able to get Kirsten, from Denmark, – who also used to have parosphromenus, to look in, – she has some interesting experience with the seleantis, – also spawning as well.Sure, where is the best place to start a chocolate gourami thread? The tank I have right now is probably going to end up with them, it is too big for licorice gouramis.
There is overlap in interest with these two fish but this site is for licorice gouramis, so maybe there is another location that would be good for learning about chocolate gouramis.
I am most interested in selatanensis, and definitely want to know whatever anyone who’s kept them has to say about their experience with them.
I saw a talk about dwarf cichlids where the speaker said the right way to keep them is in very large groups, that this is how they live in the wild. I have a betta book by member RJ Goldstein and I think that’s where I read that albimarginata are mouthbrooders and live in fast flowing water, maybe they’re mouthbrooders because they live in fast water, I don’t know. But they tolerate each other, maybe because they simply have to, why waste energy fighting the current and seraching for mates. Something like that. Or they don’t guard eggs so they’re not as territorial, probably a mix of reasons.
Funny though, I saw albimarginata in a tank and they looked pretty mean, the males were a little torn up and launching really fast attacks on each other.I am not sure about where the best place is, 🙂 .. – will try to find out if I know any, but will surely ask Kirsten who I know, – maybe she is in an english speaking forum, might be actually.
But its true, this is more the licorice gourami forum, so we better stick to that 🙂Hi Jacob
You could probably try the forum on the seriously fish website for threads on chocolate gouramis
regards
Kevin
I will go to seriously fish and I will pay attention to what the person who’s successfully bred selatanensis has done- but this question could relate to any blackwater gourami- does live food that is cultured for blackwater fish need to be raised in blackwater conditions?
I’m trying to understand the sensitivity of blackwater fish- it’s their immune systems that aren’t able to handle bacteria, I think I have that part down. And maybe they don’t tolerate change, the usual description of a fish that is not hardy. And for some reason they are used to humic substances being present and this is an element of their environment they’ve evolved to put up with or need, and is one part of the list of unchangeable environmental demands that need to be respected to keep them alive and breeding.
Where it is in the chain of interaction with the fish and their aquariums that they usually get killed and which part of their physiology is it that dooms them. This is what I am trying to get to the root of. And perhaps they are not so delicate that food from normal water would kill them. Maybe the conditions in their aquarium mean that if something is introduced, even if they eat it or are somehow exposed to it the disease organism will not have a chance to catch on and hurt them. I’m ignorant of biology, I’m not ignorant of the seeming inevitability of failure with chocolate gouramis. And that is the last I’ll say about chocolate gouramis, this isn’t the place for it.[quote=”Jacob” post=161](…) I’m ignorant of biology, I’m not ignorant of the seeming inevitability of failure with chocolate gouramis. And that is the last I’ll say about chocolate gouramis, this isn’t the place for it.[/quote]
Dear Jacob, you asked a lot of very important questions, and the chocolate-gourami-thing is relevant for the Parosphromenus-friends, too. So, I am very gratful to you for your serious and demanding search for answers and your endeavour for a pretentious way of setting up and caring for an aquarium. It very near to many of my problems.
So let’s get back to the licorice gouramis, together, I hope. But we take your very interesting and scrupulous way of questioning as a motive to think about the question, how and where to offer a place for discussions like this, which enrich our Parosphromenus-forum but don’t break it’s boarderlines?! Surely, there are many questions transcending them, and we like to attract them and not to exclude them.
But I have another request: You have written some things from the American perspective (shops, habits, fish, methods and so on). At least it looks like this from a European perspective. Please, write something in our “American”-section about all that. It will be read all over the world! And we must try to develop the American-Parosphromenus- and blackwater-scene! Your questions and perspevtives on blackwater-aquaristics are very appropriate for pushing things further and make people thinking about all that!I still have some questions and figured I might as well write them here- just questions about water preparation and testing. So ignore this post if you want to read about chocolate gouramis.
Preparing the water is an issue. What ph and hardness lowering products to buy and how much to add to the r/o water is a mystery to me. I got ph lowering powder, but I don’t feel like a very competent amateur chemist.
The tank has a peat filter in it now and test fine, though another issue is that I need to get high end testing equipment. I will not feel like the tank is ready until I have a pH tester, and whatever other hardness and bacteria tests are needed.
And maybe there are low pH range nitrate and other pollutant tests available.
It would be simple to just take peat (of the right quality) and filter the water with that, I have a tank with peat filtered r/o water that test fine as I said, but apparently peat is too unreliable. There are other materials you could use for filtration, and I wonder if that alone is enough to make the water the right value and also clean enough. Oak leaves were mentioned. Maybe the chemical method is best, or maybe there are reliable organic materials that will prepare the water. I can’t feel like the tank will be stable and safe until I’ve established how to prepare the water every time and I actually have the most accurate testers for all the important parameters. And I wonder if zeolite could be used in place of water changes, not to lessen the effort but because that may be less traumatic for the fish than water changes.
Also, I have a plastic plant holder that I’ve attached to the top of the tank so water sprite can live with its leaves in the air and roots in the water, I’m hoping this will be a powerful filter, and the root structures will look beautiful and create grazing areas for the chocolate gouramis. I was also thinking of taking almond leaves, chopping them into fine pieces, and using that as a substrate, even putting in so much that it buries the roots, but the roots are nice looking and it would be a shame to hide them. Maybe a few leaves are all that is needed.
I’m looking forward to hearing about success people have had with chocolates.More idle thoughts- keeping the aquarium with no water changes, just filtering out waste, if this were possible, wouldn’t there be a build up of humic substances that don’t get filtered out? The conditions in the wild are supposed to be really saturated with humic substances- how do the fish react to different levels of them, how much would it take to hurt them, how much do they have to have present, and how do they physically react to them at all?
I thought maybe with zeolite and uv filtering you could just top off the tank. Water changes are probably the best method that everyone uses though, it seems.
In the wild the changing levels of humic substances are seasonal, I assume. Maybe it is daily rainfall and there are certain kinds of fluctuation that they put up with well.„Idle thoughts“ or „ideal thoughts“? Jacob: Sometimes it seems to me that you are searching for the ideal setting, the ultimate aquarium for blackwater fish, simple on the one hand and perfect on the other, a model of functionality and ease at the same time … O yes, it’s worthwhile to dream of that, I did also. If it were not blackwater aquaristics, but the normal tank for neon tetras or barbs, not for breeding but only for keeping for pleasure until the fish die: then the dream has come (nearly) true meanwhile. The industry has developed some technical models of comfort and convenience, and for most aquarists this is the solution they like. But not for us, not for you, not for me, not for the chocolate and the licorice gouramis.
By the way: Here, at our new Parosphromenus-site, it’s not necessary to distinguish very cleanly between both groups, since the chocolates are blackwater fish as the licorice; in fact both are companions in many blackwater streams and rivers. There are differences, of course, in behaviour and in care, but the issues you spoke of are as much relevant for the one as for the other. We, the makers of this site, are very conscious about the fact that we designed a very special site, but in most respects it nevertheless proves true for all organisms that accompany those fish in nature: They are all more or less doomed to extinction. Maybe the chocolates a little lesser than the Paros, because there are less species and their occurrence is more widespread. It’s just as with the Orang-Utan: We selected a symbol for the vanishing beauties of the east-asian biodiversity.
Now quickly three things:
1. An inevitable equipment you need is reliable measuring kits for pH and conductivity, possibly for germs, too. All “stripes” are too inaccurate, liquids are more exact. The relevant domain is pH 3.0 to 7.0 and conductivity below the normal range of measuring kits for water hardness. But the best are electrical instruments for both, gauged and calibrated exactly, however; otherwise it’s of no use. You should begin with an electrical pH-meter. I think you will need it.
2. Yes, zeolithe is an interesting substance, no question. Since 2004, we have an interesting product based on zeolithe in Europe called “Easy life”; it will be sold in the U.S. also, I suppose. Whereas you can forget all those “water purifying” substances and all those products that “make water tropical” that are sold in every pet shop today (at least for our blackwater aims), that “easy life” is different. We have a very successful breeder of Parosphromenus in The Netherlands, Karen Koomans, who has not changed her water very often and she is certain that her successes are largely based on her regular use of that product. On the other hand, many of us do not use it (I very rarely) and we breed our fish nevertheless. Anyway: “Easy life” may help; it will not replace water change. My demineralization system working with artificial resins is comfortable and for me the base of my blackwater aquaria.
3. One of the best Betta- and Parosphromenus-breeders, Allan Brown, was always characterized by his wife Barbara as “water changer”. I think, this will stay the best method (only of course, if your new water is better than your old! There are cases where the constant water change is ridiculous because the water in a big normal tank with many plants and little fish is often better than the new water from the tap. But our blackwater problem is different). So I think there are limits to our dreams of an easy going, comfortable blackwater aquarium. As there are distinctions between the ever running waters of our fish in south-east Asia and the never running waters in our tanks. Nevertheless, it is fully correct to orientate on them. Their conditions are what we have to copy as good as possible. But there are many limits to that, unfortunately. On the other hand: The system we reccommend here is rather easy and rather comfortable compared to the everlasting technical and chemical stress that you have with a normal aquarium with tap water, dried foods and an evergrowing demand (or pretended demand) of industrial products.In the light of that insufficiencies we could only be surprised about the fact that healthy Paros and Chocos will nevertheless live for years and propagate. So let’s speak on the Parosphromenus-site of Parosphromenus, having many Bettas and Sphaerichtys in mind.
The detail oriented, perfectionist approach may have limits, but what’s worse is my past approach which has been to think that way but not to really have all the information that is available- and end up with a worst of both worlds aquarium. Treating fish like they’re delicate in a way that makes them become more delicate.
People have tons of success with fish with simple methods, and so being obsessive and detailed about it may seem pointless and mistaken to them, but it’s even worse to be obsessive and detailed and not have all the information that is actually available.
Peat fish are a great place to solve this problem because it seems like there is no chance of success if you don’t REALLY pay attention. I have been a bad aquarist in the past and it’s no fun to take an interest in animals and turn it into killing them!
With the tank as it is, there are about 20-25 gallons of water, and a very large amount of driftwood piled to create hiding places, with water sprite covering the surface and anubias in between the roots. I am going to let the plants grow out and then try and prune or control them, and I wonder if in this tank, the large amount of plants will make the need for water changes small even with a reasonable sized group of chocolate gouramis. Their small need for food, and the plants lack of any other food than fish waste might work together. The tank has snails and tiny worms and small organisms in it, the large amount of them should be helpful too, since the invertebrates don’t make much pollution but probably enhance the plants success. Also I am really hoping these little animals are part of the chocolate gouramis food or at least for their young. Crowding the chocolates seems like a good stragegy because of their aggression, I wonder if 6 is too many or enough. The fish can completely hide if they want, it is a little like the rockwork in an African cichlid tank, piling roots on top of each other so that there are lots of caves and hiding places. There is still open space, between the water sprite which hasn’t yet grown its roots out and since the roots only come up about 3/4 towards the surface. Chocolates seem like attack on sight fish, maybe this setup will give them a chance to have their hierarchy with minimal stress.
The ph tester, that’s one item I can know I have to get, an electric one which is not hard to find. The germ test you linked to, that’s one more thing I know I can get. I think reef keeping people locally will probably be able to help me find some of the testing equipment. So you use demineralizing, something like an r/o filter but more complete? Getting all these high quality tools would be great, once I have them I can take the detail oriented approach the way it is meant to be practiced.I am not really capable of the more complicated things about the setup of this tank, but will only say that I think you can easy have 6 in the tank – from the fish point of view, I would think maybe even more would be better. But if you wish to keep it very ‘maintenance-free’ then it might of course not be a good idea.
As I said I know people in Denmark has been quite succesfull with these fish, but I cant locate these people, – so I could only refer you to a danish forum site and you might be able to google-translate a bit, or at least look at the images 🙂http://www.akvarieviden.dk/forum/Regnskovs_biotop_akvarium-2241
http://www.akvarieviden.dk/forum/Regnskovs_akvariet_del_2-2280
This particular tank even had some parosphromenus in it.
Sounds like they benefit from numbers, and regular maintenance is ok, hopefully I can just make it understandable and predictable, and the amount of work just is what it is if you want to be able to keep the fish properly.
Thanks for the link.
This is a temperature, pH, conductivity and total dissolved solids meter for $180. Maybe this is good enough for everything but the germ test, which looks like Merck doesn’t sell anymore.
Peat filtration, checking that it lowered the ph and hardness enough with the meter, and uv filtration of the water also, that should be enough to make sure it is safe?
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