Territorial behaviour – sexual differences?

[Stefanie Rick]

I start this new thread to place a question I already asked in my “New paros..”-Thread – but got no answer.

Now, perhaps it’s perceived as being too suggestive to ask this question there ….. So I try again.

Totally apart from all gender determinations I would like to know whether females show territorial behaviour in the absence of males.
And how do males behave towards other males, without females in their tank?

I only have one pair of Paros (this definitely calls for improvement!) and have seen their different behaviours – but don’t know anything about the (territorial) behaviour towards tank-mates of equal gender.

[helene schoubye]

I can say at least two males in the same tank with no females – my experience is definitely that one of the males will become dominant, and will exercise his dominance. Just now I have two male p.harveyi in one tank, and one of them has taken the cave, domineering this eager, he is also the most colourful, – meaning dark, intense colours – also without females. The other male keeps less intense in colour and keeps in the background, but is not not thriving, – he is okay, just keeping a ‘dull’ life.
I had another tank with two p.nagyi males, – here the same happened, one very intense and beatiful, the other simply did not grow as much and ended up becoming weaker, thinner, less healthy.
Females alone in a tank, I havent got any experience. Two females and one male … definitely one is being ‘bullied’. But without the male, I am not sure.
However, I would think its the way of nature to make a hieraki – so that when the opportunity happpens by accident – when another sex comes by – the group of fish has already ‘sorted’ out which one is the strongest and the one to win the competition for mating. I would therefore think that even females alone together would sort out which one is stronger than the other ?

[Ted L. Dutcher]

have noticed with my spec Ampah that the males spar off frequently. They take the head-down stance and the dominant male gets very dark, but not breeding colors.

There are occasionaly displays from dominant females also, they more do a side by side stance with a nip here and there, and a dominant female has a litle better colors for a female. This is also true with the Parvulus but usually the dominant female gets close to having mating color just not as intense. With the Pavulus, the sub dominant male is very hard to tell from a female except the blue edging on his fins is more intense, but the lower half of his body does not turn dark, his anal fin slightly darkens. The dominant male Parvulus gets near breeding colors and flashes then chases the the sub-male to the back of the tank.

[helene schoubye]

I think its quite dependent on the situation, – and Stefanie asked about the behaviour in tanks with one sex only.
I definitely see very strong dominant behaviour with females if theres a male in the tank. To the point of really bullying a female. Today I just caught out a female of a p.harveyi tank where there were two females. The dominant female has already one little fry swimming around, and she is always happily going at the front glas, close to the male, which is in or around the cave – but the second female .. she has lived a life in the back of the tank so that I hardly new she was there,and if she dared peep out both male and the other female were after her. But she survived – it doesnt go to that extreme, – but she is not allowed to where she likes 🙂
I put her in the tank I mentioned above with the two males 😉
And yesterday I saw two female quindecim really in a quarrel, really ‘agression’ colours towards each other, and very ‘dominant and sub-dominant’ behaviour between the two.

But thats when theres a male around.

[bartian]

I experience quite some agressive behaviour in females of my bintan-variants. They sometimes even bite the males.

[Stefanie Rick]

Thank you for your answers, that’s very interesting. It’s usually only a side issue – in general people are interested in behaviour and colouration during courtship display between males and females.

Also you often hear about male aggressive colouration – but don’t find any pictures. It is said to look different from the colouration in courtship display. Ted mentioned it above, too.
How does aggressive colouration in males look like – here it is the same, you mostly find pictures of displaying males in their brightest colours, or of really anxious, pale ones………….

[Ted L. Dutcher]

I my limited experiences the dominant male gets dark but not the bright flashy breeding colors, although those colors are present, just subdued.
Sometimes the coloration works and a lesser male will flee and sometimes it takes a nip or 2.

With my spec Ampah I have observed 4 different distinct colorations with males.
1. Dominant, dark with some color
2. Normal stripes imitating female coloration
3. a very drab coloration all over not even distinct stripes and not dark, the current loser
4. full bright Mating colors accompanied with dancing and courting a female

No there no photos of all this, if they are not in the mating colors then then are in some level of the social scale. Each species of course is different and imagine that would be a very tough photo prject even because of variation in each species.

[helene schoubye]

If you look under species p. phoenicurus, you will find some photoes of typical male / male coloration. You have to look a little down under the small images, but there are certainly 3-4 photos in which a male is showing off to another male.
Here is two photos, taken by Martin Fischer

[Ted L. Dutcher]

wow nice pics!! Based on those, i guess sp Ampah is one darned ugly fish!
Just kidding, but the Ampah has no coloration close to those, even in breeding colors

So Steff, you can see the differences how hard it is even to help you! Patience and wait to get to know your species. The areas of red really stand out, my Ampah has no red and compared it is dull anyway. The parvulus does have red and it does show well on the dominant male but never as bright as breeding… the sub male only gets grey on his lower half and fins, the dom male is black.. when they are sparing off….the sub? he just can’t compete yet.

[helene schoubye]

ah, theres no such thing as an ugly parosphromenus 🙂 … but yes, the phoenicurus is particularly beatiful, even here where its clear that the male is not in the courtship colours (as the one on the frontpage ) – but here threathening another male, where the lines are almost gone, and the body is a brownish, greyish colour.

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Wew! Glad I said just kidding ! You are right they are atractive in the their own way, and I wouldn’t part wih them.

[Peter Finke]

[quote]
“With my spec Ampah I have observed 4 different distinct colorations with males.
1. Dominant, dark with some color
2. Normal stripes imitating female coloration
3. a very drab coloration all over not even distinct stripes and not dark, the current loser
4. full bright Mating colors accompanied with dancing and courting a female”
/quote]

Very well observed, Ted. Normally, we can distinguish these four different states of colouration in male licorice gouramies:

1. standard type one = individual without a breeding territory and cave of its own); this is your 2.: the mostly depicted state with lacking colours.
2. standard type two = individual possessing a breeding territory and cave of its own; this is your 4.: the mostly depicted state in full colours.
3. affected by positive emotions = individual aroused by aggression against rivalling male but feeling dominant; this is your 1. You don’t see much colouring in your spec. Ampah because they don’t show much colours at all (“the black and white licorice gouramy”). Very typical is the blackish colouring f.i. in aggressive P. filamentosus.
4. affected by negative emotions = individual aroused by fear because of danger or feeling weak; this is your 3.

There are not many good photos of Parosphromenus. If, they most depict states 1 or 2. The “normal” picture that allows to distinguish between the species is state 2. But there are some photos depicting states 3 and 4, too, however mostly mixed within the others. For instance take the booklet edited by D. Armitage, page 7, top photo of alfredi (A. Brown) shows state 4. This fish is frightened, had no time to become accustomed to the situation of a new tank. There are more photos of this kind to be seen in the booklet.
Or take page 11, the lowest photo of anjunganensis. You don’t see two males but only one mirrored. The fish itself seemed to see a potential rival male and shows enhanced colouring, the stripes are reduced (state 3). The speciality of this species is that the body does not become darkish in that mood.

[Stefanie Rick]

This is of really great help!! Thank you very much, Ted and Peter!!

And now – if it is possible – the same for females, and I would be absolutely glad. Of course there are not so many “moody colourations” in females as in males, I guess.

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Yes Steff, Females are a problem usually not much in colors to flash, but by elimination you should be able to find which, is which.

I’m having a simialr problem with the Ampah. There is definately a female but none of the males are yet interested and she ignores them… now I’m wondering if maybe she is a female filamentosus. They were all sold as filamentos and I hope Ampah and filiments were not mixed (the dealers were/are unfamiliar with Ampah at all).

So now I must wait for full maturity and I haven’t a clue to there age (they were young and I’ve had them for 3 months) The males are easy by checking their color patterns, but she just seems different nd I would think young males would be offering some attention to her.

One thing I’ve learned about keeping fish…. patience…patience… and THEY know who’s a male and who’s a female. They will make you decions for you!!

[Peter Finke]

Fewer colour-types with the females? I am not sure (see 4.). And there are some spectacular specialities:

1. standard type one = individual without a mate courting: the mostly depicted state without “sexy eyes”.
2. standard type two = individual mated to a courting male: females with “sexy eyes” and very pale resp. yellowish (according to the species) body lacking the stripes. In some cases the otherwise clear dorsal and anal fins get coloured brownish or with dark markings (nagyi, filamentosus, alfredi, …).
3. affected by positive emotions = individual female aroused by aggression against rivalling female or troubling/annoying male but feeling dominant: intense colours especially of the fins, in some species even reminding (partly) of male (f.i. tweediei).
4. affected by negative emotions = individual female aroused by fear because of danger or feeling weak: may be identical with 1. or slightly different by speckled markings(?).

This does not apply to P. ornaticauda and P. parvulus. Females of ornaticauda change in heavy courtship their whole colouring to am appearance nearly similar to the male, including the “red flame” in the caudal. In parvulus many females tend to a similar change but by far not as extreme as ornaticauda.
Additionally, there is an aberrant variant of P. paludicola (probably a subspecies or species of its own), namly spec. Wakaf tapei. There, the females darken in heavy courtship instead of becoming lighter. This surely indicates a big difference to the normal colour change which is to be observed with other paludicola-variants, too.

But who shoots (good) photos of females? Nearly nobody. We lack them more than those of males. This is understandable, but it’s a gap nevertheless and we should try to fill it!

[Author]

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