Vinegar for pH

[bartian]

Is it possible to use vinegar as a pH-lowering agent? I just poured a small amount in an empty tank with only RO-water and pH dropped from 6 to the lowest part of the measuring table, whiach goes to 4,5.

This seems a very easy way of lowering pH, but is it safe? Vinegar isn’t very toxic as far as I know and it will form a buffer at a quite nice pH. Are there any chemical reactions that will disturb the ecosystem or will it go fine? Has anyone used this before?

[Maciej]

That’s not the kind of acid you want to have in your aquarium. You want acids resulting from the decomposition of peat moss and leafs. I’m not sure about the english name of these, but probably humic acid, and some tanins.

[bartian]

Thanks for the quick answer!

I don’t care about what acid it is since they all do the same thing: freeing H3O+/H+. The main thing is vinegar is much stronger and easier to dose. I use a lot of peat and leaves for coloring the water and for enriching the pure RO water(H2O is really bad for organisms in pure form!) so I don’t think humic and tannins will be a problem.

[Stefanie Rick]

I find it an interesting question and thus tried to find out something more in German forums.

What I found is that the bacterial flora will increase within a few days, because the extremely short-chained organic acids of vinegar are easily to be consumed by bacteria.

I’m afraid – an increase of bacteria in our water is not what we want……

[Peter Finke]

To lower pH by vinegar is really nonsense and contraproductive. You can use pure acids (as phosphoric acid or sulphuric acid in addition to humic substances from peat or leafs) but not vinegar! Vinegar is food containing many different aromatic ingredients and produced from many fruits or herbs or other things (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar ). You do not want to aromatize your water but to lower the pH.
Indeed, you could use some sorts of acids, and there are industrial products for this (e.g. based on oak). But vinegar, really, that is to mistake the aquarium for the food table!

[Ted L. Dutcher]

Here across the pond (US) we have Cider Vinegar @ 5%, and white Distilled Vinegar @ 5%.

Distilled white vinegar would be the best (less organics) to try. Either of course, could cause bacterial blooms and the raw cider vinegar could seriously cause more serious blooms which could effect oxygen levels etc.

All our streight vinegars are made from fermented apple juice. I would not use flavored vinegars (as mentioned by Peter) as used in salads etc. either.

The acidity is Acetic acid which should be safe. It should also be stable in a tank but you should be cautioned to test often in your tank/tanks…until you are sure it reacts ok with your setup.

I did use vinegar years ago in some tanks and it worked. BUT I can’t remember why I stopped using it.

So, if you want to go ahead, with a PURE DISTILLED VINEGAR and of course GO WITH CAUTION.

I understand Peter’s concerns and they are valid, and I would only tell you to try it with the distilled version of vinegar, and again with no fancy flavored additives.

[bartian]

Thanks for the answers.

Of course I mean pure white vinegar, no balsamico or other fancy food-aromatizing substances.

My only fear was there problably are bacteria or other microorganisms that use acetic acid for food. Still not clear if these live in aquariums too.
Apparently everyone knows vinegar is useless but nobody can tell why… The fact that other mixtures with acetic acid are used as food is of course not an argument.

Of course I won’t try vinegar in inhabited tanks, so, as we say here in the Netherlands: baat het niet dan schaadt het niet, and of course, niet geschoten is altijd mis.

[Nils A. Seastrand]

I must comment, if only to agree with Peter on this one. Lowering pH is one thing but making a pickle or a salad dressing is someting else.Lowering pH is important ,however, how you get there is just as important. I have used tannic acid for many years with very good results when used carefully. It was instrumental many years ago in successful breeding of a number of species of (blackwater fish). It is not an answer or easy fix but can be a usefull tool. I make up water for changes, etc. in my paros. tanks from steam distilled water with small amount of tannic acid added. This usually stands for about 10 days before using. Would love to here from any here who have worked with tannic acid. Thanks.

[bartian]

But why would tannic acid work, while acetic acid won’t? Acetic acid is the second most simple acid but tannic acis is huge and full of fenol, thus less stable.

[Stefanie Rick]

[quote=”bartian” post=1555]
My only fear was there problably are bacteria or other microorganisms that use acetic acid for food. Still not clear if these live in aquariums too.
Apparently everyone knows vinegar is useless but nobody can tell why… [/quote]

I thought I answered this already …..

What I found is that the bacterial flora will increase within a few days, because the extremely short-chained organic acids of vinegar are easily to be consumed by bacteria.

This was the experience made with vinegar in aquariums …… no question that the bacteria must have been there ………

[bartian]

Yes, but bacterial growth is not necessarily bad.

Now that you are saying it, how did you measure the number of bacteria?

[Stefanie Rick]

[quote=”bartian” post=1562]Yes, but bacterial growth is not necessarily bad.

Now that you are saying it, how did you measure the number of bacteria?[/quote]

It was not me who made the experience ………. as I wrote I found it in German forums.

They reported a strong, milky cloudiness after a few days.

And as I understand the text on water in paro tanks here a severe bacteria load is to be avoided:

The biological function of these low pH values ​​is not yet fully understood, but it is likely that it mainly is to suppress harmful bacteria which may attack the eggs of the fish. In fact, the bacterial load in highly acidic water is much lower than in less acidic or even alkaline water.

[bartian]

I’m sorry, I’m a bit sleepy so not reading very well.

Bacteria are strongly differentiated and should not be generalised as harmful. We are dependant on a lot of different bacteria species. We can’t live without them. Saying acetic-degrading bacteria are bad because some other bacteria are, is like saying all fish are dangerous because you once stepped on a stingray. Indeed you don’t want Vibrio cholerae in your tank, but Nitrobacter are essential. What I’m trying to say is, the mily clouds are not necessarily harmful.

But I’ll look what happens in a testing tank.

[Stefanie Rick]

I know about “good” and “bad” bacteria, of course.

But I think that water, cloudy with bacteria (no matter if good or bad), is not comparable to those waters described from paro’s natural habitats.
Despite it’s tea-brown or even darker colour the natural water is said to be cristal clear. For me this is the measure.

[bartian]

Yes, that is true. It is better to do like nature does.

[Author]

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