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I think that looks quite all right.
Whether ‘normal’ or not … I think park ‘nests’ are very different, I have definetely seen some looking like yours, – and others maybe more neat, yet others even more chaotic, or fewer eggs ..
So lets see what happens ..
If you can take a photo like this you must be able to see the eggs with a small torch, – and just have a look once a day or something, just to check shortlyYes, I agree, we could include this in the describtions, – however I think I would never say that one could really safely determine the sex of a paro seen in the shop before buying. I would never myself feel certain that I could see that, there are too many factors there that makes it uncertain – and a frightened paro is so difficult. Plus unknown age makes it difficult as well. So theres no safe way to aquire a ‘pair’ of paros, as you may find with other species. I have tried to say to my local fishshop 🙂 .. I would like to buy a pair of this paro… and they do know I am joking, because thats simply too difficult in most cases.
And I think we should also remember that this situation is an unusual one, – and not a general rule, – but it could of course be mentioned that it is a possibility, I think it should, – and I will certainly be aware of it in future advice.
So really, what has been the exellent learning from your fish is .. what an experienced person as Martin already was aware of, – some few fish can be like this, – a dominant female in a flock of only females could obviously show slight male caracteristics. This is one thing that I will then definitely take with me on other occasions when trying to id a fish.
I have learned something here 🙂
And secretly I would still hope that your female decided to be a true male 🙂 because that would be so much nicer for you 🙂 but if its not..its not !I was looking at your location on the map, – you should not be too far away from some of our members who could supply you with fish that were more certain, both in regards to species and sex. Buying in shops is always risky in one way or other, most times anyway.
Someone in Denmark just bought some fish which were all males 🙁 …
And I have certainly done that too.Thank you Peter for this long explanation. I have never really quite understood this about those two species. Its very informative and good to know.
It would be good if we could somehow get some photoes of the blue line – I dont know if we have that ?And also, again, Stefanie, – I would like to say – even now, – I could have my personal conviction 🙂 … but it would never be anything else than that.
I really dont know more than what I have written, – this fish has signs which is confusing, – the male signs are there, but they are not clear and certain. A male would by now have developed a colour band in the other fins, it does not have that as far as I can see.
The female signs are also there, and I think more dominating.Hi Stefanie.
I think I speak here for all, that we really try our best to be helpful. I certainly do, – but it is really difficult to be 100 percent certain of this on the basis of photoes, – and I must say, the images you have showed earlier, with my experience looked very much as a male.
In the last image – if this is the same fish, it shows those signs much less, – now you say it, yes the band in the caudal fin is vaguely visible. But at the same time this fish shows no other real clear signs of being male (except for the vague band) – and to me it now (which has been the confusing point all the way) shows many more clear signs of being female (that would be the bodyform, the lack of colours in all other fins)With all our experience and good intentions it is obvious that sometimes its just not that easy. Martin gave you his opinion, and to me it sounds like he was rigth indeed, – so its pointless to argue just for the sake of arguing, – I for one have learned through this thread that a female can indeed show male characteristics in the absence of males, – more than I thought.
I am sorry for having perhaps giving you false hope that it was indeed male, – I honestly now must say I have to correct myself … – I was fooled by the fact that it showed more intense colours than I have seen in a female beforeWell .. so I have joined the discussion at SeriouslyFish about the first picture of the ‘deissneri’, because it seemed that it actually is a fish which originated from wildcaught fish coming over Karsten Keibel in Denmark, who recieved these from someone in Norway in 2008, – and was able to breed these. I had a pair of ‘deissneri’ from Karsten, offspring from these fish.
And I know for a fact, that Karsten got his fish from Norway together with another species – also wild caught – from Bangka, – but they were not separated. How long time these fish had been going together I am not sure, – and maybe not all of them did go together, but I know he recieved them from Norway in one plastic bag 😉 .. – and I would really not think thats the most certain way to be able to seperate all females correctly
Although, I do know that he was able to see that some fish had a pointed caudal fin, and some not .- also the female deissneri, which then became the mother of the offspring …. but anyway, I thought I should contribute to the investigation here.
I didnt realize the connection before I went to seriouslyFish and read the whole discussion there 🙂 … and then I suddenly remembered there was a story to these fish from Norway. I dont want to discredit anyone or any such thing, – but the findings of p. deissneri in Norway was a bit of an event at that time, and everyone was quite excited. And there was another species involved which was puzzling at the time. And they all came supposedly came from Bangka.I think, after all, males moving eggs are quite rare, – but it must show that he thought the cave wasnt quite safe after you took out the snail – he didnt like that 🙂 – which is understandable really.
As for a short period of time, untill you get the tank ready, I think there will be no danger to any of the fish, – but of course obviously one of them will attempt this spawning which seems to be problematic with two. But I have never experienced ‘serious’ damage with paroes like other labyrinths. Provide maybe some extra plants or something.
I just had the experience with having four juveniles together and wondering why they didn’t seem to be doing very well, – a bit pale, scatterer, one not coming to eat and so… so I seperated them in two pairs, and voila 🙂 .. they all coloured up, and one pair spawned the next day. So I do think you are right that seperation is the next step and will give more peace and harmony.
Its interesting though, – that I have 3 P. nagyi in a small tank – 12 litter – one female and her two sons, and because I dont know which ‘son’ she preferres I kept them together, – and theres now about 5-6 off spring in the tank also. So sometimes its not such a problem. But i also have a tank almost totally filled up with java moss growth 🙂
How many fish is in the tank ?
In fact, I think, if the paro male has accepted one cave, it could confuse him if theres more. There is no need to have several options – as long as he does seem to have picked one out.
About hatching and so …
Plus – minus – the eggs will hatch in about 2 days, – and the larvae will develop for about a week more, hanging in the nest. The larvae will stay in the cave after free swimming stage for a few days .. depending on individuals, or on the cave. After this the male will loose interest.
Its really difficult to say much about feeding – at least I am unable to – once the free swimming fry has left the cave I am totally unable to spot them for weeks, – maybe others have experience with intensive breeding where they follow the fry more closely, – but in my tanks, – they dissappear.
I feed – a little bit randomly – in the beginning with paramecium, – infusoria – or in fact, if the breeding takes place in tanks which are ‘old’ and settled, and where by itself small organisms are available, I might not feed the fry really. Quite often I dont know if theres any fry present, so I dont feed, – but they find food anyway. Until suddenly they appear feeding alongside the adult fish when I feed artemias.But if I know theres fry, – I will feed the paramecium for some time, – at the same time as there are adult in the tank, so also feeding artemis. I will maybe after a week feed a few times with microworms, – or vineager eels are a good alternative.
But its hard to say precisely, – I cannot, – maybe someone else can. And it really is difficult because you don’t know for quite a while whether any fry has survived or not. They are simply too small and so good at hiding in the smallest bit of dust or gravel.Snails are of course not a good thing to have around eggs, – they will probably eat these. However, its rather difficult to have a tank without snails, – I certainly have these from time to time.
But if you can – try to get it out – I think that would be my advice. However it might not be so easy, and its a balance between getting the snail out, and not disturbing the fish.In my experience the female parvenus has excatly this bright blue border – and you may see it only in certain lights – 🙁 … but I wouldn’t be completely sure its a male.
What I have found is that there are differences, – sometimes a male will have a full nest and guard it very careful. I have a nagyi male, – he is very faithful, – I see him out of the cave maybe once every 3 weeks, – just for a day, – then he is back again on another clutch of eggs, and he has an extremely good ‘rate’ of succes, many offsprings.
Then other males, and you are right, young ones can be a bit insecure, – but they build the nest with a few bubbles, get a female to produce some eggs, then the next day rush off to get the female to come again, and produce more eggs.
I think on the little video I once uploaded of the linkei couple, the pair was mating while there were larvaes hanging from the first spawning. https://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/forum/27-Undetermined/1173-video-of-attempted-spawning.html#1204So what I am saying is, – that yes, he might continue the spawning in the same nest, – with or without eggs from the day before (they may have gone these eggs, – or they may still be there) – he may add to them.
I have never seen a male having two wives though 🙂But I have seen one male getting either worried, or confused about too many caves, and actually moving eggs from one to the other.
:whistle: Well, I admit to being a parvulus admirer .. they are my favorite
It is not unusual that the courting and additional spawning may take place, even the eggs are still developing in the nest, – so it does not nessesarely mean the eggs have deteriorated.
But of course, could also be so.One thing is certain, – once started, your little male will continue ..
And maybe another one, not bad 🙂
