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Martin, I am afraid: Your pictures are by far too bad in order to reply to your question. One hat to see the sharp details of all fins, their correct colours and structure, and sometimes even the details of the body.
But in may cases there is no better determination than that Glaser (with one s!) has given. There are very good people working who know the problems of Paro-determination especially with the wide-range species bintan. It is quite correct and up to date that many bintan-like fish are to be called spec. aff. bintan or cf. bintan, and in many cases they simply are bintan, this indicating local small differences only and not a different species to be scientfically described later.
I am quite sure that it is not the Sentang-form which is duller and not so sparkling in the fin’s colours. So, it may well be a blue line-type from the Sungai Tungkal-region of Jambi/Sumatra, since the short ventrals match with the first types from over there described using this commercial name. Unfortunately, later on there were fish with much longer ventrals sold bearing the same name. This is a real problem, since that refers to structure and not colour only. But I am afraid that only indicates that this commercial name cannot longer be taken as a clear indication of a single locality (as it was in the beginning). Probably, in the long run we have to drop that name. It is rarely helpful if commercial people try to create an popular name (“blue line”) which is inexact and misleading.
Therefore, we need better pictures, but maybe even then Glaser cannot use a different naming. So, be content with this; it indicates our present knowledge and perhaps even the present state of evolutionary affairs in the genus.
Peter FinkeZahar, please be more careful in claming “new species”. The only thing I can see on your photos is a special arrangement of blue and red colours. We know from sincere studies with alfredi and tweediei that this can be widely dependent from food. Red tweediei have been suddenly blue only within months, or the other way around, or (most likely) partially mixed in a “new” way; alfredi appeared equally “new”. Some “new” species have been clamed by amateurs. But there is no proof up to the present day.
If there are more hints than colour, say structure and/or behaviour, this might be a different case. But I cannot see those in your photos. And you do not mention them in your words.
Besides: The location that you roughly give, is a rather well-known “old” location. Nearly all places have seen deep changes by human action, including bringing-out of species that have not been found there decades ago (P. nagyi for instance). The primeeval forest is largely gone and partially replaced by plantations; the important blackwater is widely completely gone and partially replaced by clear water that is more mineralized. It is entirely unlikely that now decades later a Paro-species new to science should be found. Your fish are probably colour variants of alfredi and/or tweedie. Whether the cause for this variation is natural or human I cannot say. The latter is more likely.
One can even be more precise:
This is very clearly a male P. nagy in der terra typica-Form Kuantan. The caudal indicates definitey Kuantan (as opposed to Cherating or other variants) because of two markers: the broad white band inside the fin (as opposed to a blueish with Cherating) and the free spins overshooting the fin at the end which are very typical for nagyi Kuantan.
You should be happy for getting this species and form. It is ridiculous to sell it as “quindecim”. Nobody with eyes in the head and some brain can get these two confused, even females not.
Peter FinkeThe problem are not missing compagnies for safely shipping living Paros across the channel or even across the ocean. There are enough of them, and they need not to be specialized on medical things. And the problem are not the bags, breathing bags or normal ones. For Betta you better take the former, for Paros you don’t need to.
The problem is the costs or better: the aquarists who are not willing to pay higher costs for such services. There are enough fish, enough offspring, enough alternatives. But shipping them safely costs definitely more than a normal letter or parcel. And this is too much for many people. That is the problem.
[quote=”AlmightyJoshaeus” post=6184]Perhaps this would have been better put under ‘methods’?[/quote]
Yes, I think so. We have thought these categories over very carefully at the beginning. Nobody has complained about it all the years. Everybody has tried to fit his note into one of them. You create disorder! Think again before writing next time!
[quote=”AlmightyJoshaeus” post=6184]Perhaps this would have been better put under ‘methods’?[/quote]
Yes, I think so. We have thought these categories over very carefully at the beginning. Nobody has compained about it all the years. Everybody has tried to fit his not into one of them. You create disorder! Think again before writing next time!
Yes, thank you Bernd. To my knowledge this is the first video of P. sumatranus courtship. But I am a bit puzzled that the female does not join the male in his upright posture?! Remembering the photos shot by Karen Koomans – both partners standing upright one beside the other – I wonder whether you have seen this too, or not?
By the way, we need good photos of sumatranus courtship either. Perhaps you could shoot some, Bernd?I gladly confirm Helene’s message. Transporting eggs or even larvae to another cave has been witnessed by several people concerning several species. Rather often it is to be seen with P. ornaticauda and P. parvulus, but with other species, too. Helene is right in presuming that the presence of several caves adds to the probability of eggs being transported from the one to the other. This is no odd behaviour at all. Mostly, we breed Paros in small tanks with one cave only. But in nature, roots, leaves of submerse or emerse plants, wooden leftovers of different origins normally form a variety of natural caves, and enimies in the water and the air are abundant. So males seeking security for their offspring are quite normal a thing.
I think that we should not forget that this site is more than a forum. (Anyway: there are four forums, and I admit that some are still more quiet than this. I should prefer more activity, too).
But the main point I have is that to large an extent this is an educational site. We get only few informations on the learning effect of the many texts that are to be found on the menue at the left side of our opening page. Although I should prefer – as Helene does – more forum activity, we may not forget that our aims are not simpy to be equated with that of aquaristic sites.
And by the way: activity is not quality. From our project’s point of view the emergence of a new enthusiast in the U.S. or anywhere in the world supporting our ambitious aims is in my view more valuable than most superficial wordings in some very active forums.
Peter FinkeCongratulations, Rafael, and congratulations to all of us. The new stock we have presently differs markedly from the first that was imported decades ago to Europe. The first breeder, Günter Kopic, complained heavily about the difficulties to be overcome. As it seems, this probably was due to individual or poplation-relative sensbilities that are obviously absent from the stock we have now. I am sure you will be still more successful with this species in the future. The main difficulty seems to be the rather small numer of eggs produced. In my experience the tiny larvae hide beneath the leaves on the ground still more effectivily than in other species.
Russ ist right. Although the pictures are terribly bad indeed, there is a possibility of the fishes being ornaticauda. If they are in bad shape after enduring bad weeks of bad or no food, bad water and missing quietude (and often they are, specifically this species) their normal colouring is just like or similar to other Parosphromenus. Then, the slim structure of the body is nearly the only indication of the species. P. ornaticauda is extremely sensitive to Oodinium, and often the indications of this are hardly or not to be seen at all. If this is not treated early by efficient medicine, they will not survive. If it is, they can be cured completely.
1. The 30 liter is not overcrowded by 5 Paros. Mind, that s small cave is heaven on earth for a pair of them. In nature, they live in small groups mostly in an space not much bigger than a small tank. Here, all enimies are missing. More space is possible but makes Paro-care more difficult. When the first pair starts breeding, than the three other fish will be forced to a corner, however. This could make the 50 liter a preference.
2. The honey gourami is a fish that will never occur in oligotrophic blackwater streams but in eutrophic ponds and rice fields. It’s a completely unecological combination. And H. amandae? Why that? Mind that Paros are highly endangered fish, and the Parosphromenus Project does not recommend to use them as ornamental inhabitants of nice community tanks. If this is your aim, take south American Nannostomus-species.
3. The Pangios, if they stand the highly demineralized milieu of the blackwater tank, will certainly have the effect that no young will grow up in your tank.
So, you should decide what you want. You did not speak about plants; I am afraid that is a further problem. You said “The tank is blackwater”, but you seem to be not conscious of what that means and what you really want.Daniel, everything Helene said is right. I only want to to supply some points.
1. The name of the location is Langgam (on Sumatra), not Laggam.
2. I am in doubt that the female you show to us is a phoenicurus (form of the tail fin, marking of the dorsal). But I can be wrong and it’s not important. Let them grow and display, then we shall see.
3. Your tank seems to be rather empty. Paros don’t live in their natural waters in the empty space but near or even in the riparian zones crowded with reed, near old twigs and branches of wood and masses of leaves that had fallen down. You should fill in some structures, best are small old pieces of dead wood from peat bogs. The usual aquarium plants mostly don’t stand the water values; small pieces of “Java moss” and “Java fern” could be helpful. Structuring the empty water will help the new fish to acclimate.
4. Small flocks of tiny barbs like Boraras spec. help also; they must be caught out if breeding begins.
5. Then at the latest you should remove that snails also, of which one is to be seen. They could not stand the normal water values because of missing Ca.
6. By the way: You don’t say anything on the water values. The pH must be fixed below 7.0, the calcium hardness around zero. The best is to measure electronically and try to get a Microsiemens more than 10 and less than about 60.
7. Your other fish are definitely no deissneri. P. deissneri is endemic on Bangka island and near to extinction. There is no commercial fishing. All places known for long to the specialists are definitely totally destroyed. We shall see later what you have really.
Best, PeterHelene is fully right. Every year when the breeding season in sundaland has ended, young Paros of some of the main catching grounds are traded by some central suppliers to Europe and the world. P. ornaticauda is highly longed for and presently available in some shops in Germany and in other countries. The problem for the P-P is not availability but breeding and sustainability. Until today concerning this species, this has not changed our efficiency in that. You can be sure that our members with really breeding experience will try to solve the puzzle. You are invited to join them.
By the way, with any species we prefer to strengthen the stocks with approved locality. In this species there is a rather big realm of distribution that may mean different local variants, that may cause those problems. At present, an Asian member of the project is researching in Kalimantan Tengah and probably will be able to tell us more in Hamburg on that problem.You are invited to join us there, too.
Therefore, postings as yours do not solve the problems; they enhance the usual mentality of want-to-have and keeping-to-death which marr the usual aquaristics. P-P is different.
I do not want to offend you, I want to make you conscious of the problems.
Obviously, from time to time I must tell a serious word to some of our new members.
There are structural markers and distinctions of colours that permit to distinguish between Paro-species und -variants. Additionally, there are differences in behaviour, say courtship head down or head up, or else.The most easily to detect marker is whether the fish has a rounded tail fin or a tail formed in another a way. But this is by far not sufficient. There are many species/variants with rounded fins, as bintan or alfredi or anjunganensis for instance. Another rather clearly to distinguish marker ist the length of the ventral filaments. But again, this is not sufficient. In the case of the two slim-bodied species (parvulus and ornaticauda) we have that structural marker, too. But in all the others you need colours, too.
So, in many cases we need colour markers, in addition to structural markers. If the animals are too young, one is unable to say the species. With female fish it is the same, apart from a few clear cases. Even in species mit non-rounded tails in males we have often rounded tails in females (e.g. deissneri).In all other cases, you need g o o d photographs to say anything reliable. Look at the photos in the Finke/Hallmann-book on Paroshromenus and you will see what that does mean. Here, in the forums of the PP, we sometimes had good photos, either; among our members are some (very few!) good photographers. But most photos we see here are simply too bad to say anything of value. It is difficult to shoot good Paro-photos, but without them we are stirring in the dark.
The only thing one can say with your photos here is that your fish is certainly not deissneri and cetainly not anjunganensis. If you want to hear more, you must deliver very good, big, sharp, clear photos. Better, you deliver the source of your fish additionally. Most Paros in the tanks of our members are from the trade. There are big differences in the continents and countries, the companies and shops concerning trading Paros. The best advice is to buy your fish from a good breeder personally. If you will come to our second Hamburg meeting this September, then you can obtain offspring of many rightly determined species. I know that this is often impossible. But then you will come across all sorts of nonsense names.
There is no alternative: At least, you must deliver photos of best quality. Otherwise you cannot hope for a precise answer but suspicions only that name at least four or six species; if the variants should be included still many more.
