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Stefanie, try Tropicwater. The patron, Wolfgang Löll, was very helpful in other cases. But he was disappointed in the last case, too: Somebody identified a bunch a about 600 Paros imported by Glaser as the true deissneri, it would have been the first commercial import of that famous and magnificent fish, and Mr. Löll bought them all.
Then it became clear that it wasn’t deissneri; in fact, it was the new and hitherto unknow spec. Ampah. Not bad either, but diappointing nevertheless. I am not sure whether he sold all of them. We made it popular, the fish were excellent, but it was a flaw nevertheless. So, I am not quite clear if Mr. Löll is again ready to help in such a Paro-case, but I hope so. He is a fine chap. If it would be clear it’s gunawani he would readily do so. But in the situation like this – maybe or maybe not – I am uncertain.
Nevertheless, try. In principle Tropicwater sells to private buyers, too, not only to shops or other dealers.
If you are successful: tell us. There might be many friends more that were ready to follow you.For me it’s impossible: too young, not full male colouration, missing additional information on origin. There are at least eight, if not twelve forms from Bangka, Bintan, Sumatra and Kalimantan that could be involved. From Sumatra alone, there are five or six different forms potentially fitting to these pictures.
We should wait, have better pictures, or at least some information of their origin by the importer.
The tanks of Big Tom are beautiful, but they are not really adequate for Parosphromenus. It is impossible to grow such a wealth of plants with subdued light, in water of a pH below 6, maybe 5 or 4, even 3, and with a carbon hardness of zero. You even could keep adult specimen of some fish species (linkei, filamentosus) in such ornamental tanks, but nearly no others, and the breeding will be difficult or impossible.
I very much like Tom’s tanks, too, but they are not typical blackwater fish tanks. It is just what Tom himself says: You cannot achieve all your goals within one ideal tank. But you can run a beautifully planted dungle on the one hand, and breed nice Paros on the other.
But I admit: after having seen only blackwater tanks, you like to see a beautiful plant jungle again. Therefore, welcome back, Tom!
If this information is correct, Bartian, this will be of major interest to all Paro-friends in Europe! Hitherto, we had no clear commercial import of gunawani or spec. Danau Rasau before. Only two private imports, but with very limited numbers and the last without any females.
I think it is possible that the information of Ruinemans is correct, but I beg you, dear Bartian, try to receive more information about the origin of the fish: Are they really coming from Sumatra, county Jambi? Even then, there are some other forms which have been more often imported, and they are similar! Nevertheless, adult gunawani are to be recognized by their stout bodies and the colourful small bandings of the male fins.
Some photos would be great.
Anyway, it is likely that such imports do occur by several companies and in several European countries nearly at the same time, so maybe Glaser in Germany has got he fish, too.
We all should be highly interested since the species is otherwise lost at the moment in the project. Therefore, we should get hold of a bunch of pairs and have only one aim: to breed them. I did that once with animals that I got from Horst Linke’s private import, and it was not very difficult. They are niot as easy als e.g. linkei, but not as difficult as e.g. ornaticauda.
Praise to you, Bartian, for keeping your eyes open!!
Doesn’t it rain in the US? Many Paro-friends in Europe use pure rainwater (only made more acid) with best results.
Lee, we should like to welcome you i n the Parosphromenus project, if you could log-in once. Then your address is in our data-list and we could inform you about fellow aquarists in the UK.
But let me say the following here: What you report is the normal situation nearly everywhere. If the fish that you see in your local shop appear to be healthy with open fins and no meagre body, then you can buy some without doubts. But don’t put them in Paro-suited water at once. Begin with that tap water again, and change it within two weeks to the right water in small steps. In two weeks time it should In any case, you should prepare one or two Artemia breeding bottles so that you can have fresh naupliae every few days.
That the shop indicates these fish as P. spec. is a good sign. It means that they are conscious about the fact that they are no “deissneri”, and that the exporter in south-east Asia is conscious about this as well. Normally, the most wild Paros sold in the international fish trade are nowadays from Sumatra and either the so-calles spec. blue-line or the so-calles spec. Sentang, very nice fish but not scientifically described hitherto. And normally the offered fish are not species-mixed.
Look to get males and females. Probably the male fish don’t display bright colours in the trade’s tanks (why should they, without quietness and caves in a bad milieu?), but any markings in the fins would indicate males. The dorsal fins are normally more pointed than those of the females, which must be clear and transparent.
I shall write to you a private mail after you have logged-in; before it is impossible.
We have seen dominant females of several Paro-species in situations where males were missing displaying reduced colouration of males. To me, this was very obvious in case of a tweediei-female which adopted all fin colours of tweediei-males in a reduced form. Even sexy eyes were to be seen (in a reduced form), and she sometimes stayed for minutes in a cave. I was sure she was a female only because the male had died and she had spawned with him before.
So, I suppose we have a similar behaviour in this case. A dominant female tries to play the role of a male, but that does not work, of course. But we shall see. I cannot exclude a subdominant male or even a new form, although botz is unlikely. It would have all the time and possibility before to develop normale male colouration and behaviour. If a proper cave is missing, they take an improper one (below leaves or algae-paddings).
By the way: Stefanie’s fish remind me at the most of Parosphromenus gunawani, a bintan-like form from county Jambi on Sumatra, formerly called spec. Danau Rasau. It’s the body form which is similar, rather high-built and generally stout and strong. Sumatra was the most-exploited region in Paro-land during the last years. P. gunawani was imported twice privately first (by our friend Horst Linke) and I received some pairs from this import about six years ago. I spawned them with great success, but – alas! – I lost all fish by an Oodinium-attack.
Stefanie, it’s difficult to compare the three fish since on the photos they are not to be seen equally perfect and from the same angle and pespective. I am unable to say that they are different concerning the pointedness of the dorsal fin or some markings in the one but not in the other individual. You could observe all this by no means better in front of your tank than we seeing these pictures. There are differences to be seen, but they lie within the range of individual divergence of a single species, I should say.
However, it is clear that the pictures show very well developed females with the potential to spawn, and it is a pity that they have no male(s) to do so. The blackish spot that you speak of and that is, according to your words, better to be seen in one individual only, is by no means an indication of P. sumatranus, as one could think (you did not indicate that), since it is much more prominent in that species (or even in allani), whereas the body structure is clearly different, especially in sumatranus. The short filament (= ca. 1 mm) at the end of the sumatranus-caudal is missing, too.
The fine pictures again illustrate that we are nearly unable to distinguish between the females of many Parosphromenus-species that are close to bintan, say e.g. spec. “blue line”, spec. Sentang, spec. Dabo, spec. Dua, but also alfredi, rubrimontis, harveyi or opallios, even female of nagyi of the variant from Cherating or Cukai or Pekan Nenasi (not the classical form of the first description from Kuantan!). It is very likely that they belog to that variant that was imported at that time when you received them. On the other hand we are (if experienced!) are sometimes able to recognize females of species that are more or less near to the bintan-type, as e.g. filamentosus, phoenicurusor tweediei, and the true deissneri.
If you still remember or have a description of that situation and if you still have male form that import, I should try toy pair one of the females with one of that males. We really don’t know how males react to females of not exactly their own species or form, but a close relative. Without exact genetic information, we have nearly no information about the measure of closeness or distance that plays a role there. So we don’t encourage people to mix potentially different animals clearly. But in your case it might be justified to try it if you have males that may stem from that import and if you are able to do a controlled experiment in a separate tank and we could see whether it works at all or not. And then we can discuss the outcome. Without that we cannot be sure about anything. Having done that maybe we can’t either, but we have more information. It could be that we can presume it’s species xy, or not.
So, have a controlled try, if you can.
I think that both Helene and Bill Little are right. Helene in principle and Bill in practice. The method proposed might work with the lesser “problematic” Paro-species (as there are linkei, filamentosus, quindecim or paludicola, maybe nagyi too) but probably not with the others. The species named are more adaptable than others, if the changes occur slightly and slowly. It’s no serious problem with the adult fish, it’s a problem with the eggs and the young larvae.
Therefore, I should prefer a different method and choose this one in case of quite a many self-produced offspring of the named species only. This would be my strategy: to produce many young with a somewhat more complicated method, and then – perhaps – make some experiments.
[quote=”Rutilans” post=2797]managed to get some anjungensis from someone who doesn’t want them anymore.11-12 pcs at $40sgd.worth it?in usd it 31.28.in euro it’s 23.10[/quote]
If you mean a pair it’s slightly more than you pay in Europe. But: These are heavily endangered fish! In my view this price is not too high. You cannot compare that with Guppy or Trichopsis vittatus.
In former times there were lots of places nearer to Singapore. There might be some today left, but they are not known because too small for the average enthusiast from Europe or the catchers of the exporters in Asia. But maybe you find them?
Rutilans, as Bartian said: get a car, get a big plastic sieve with small holes so that no Paro could slip through and drive (to tell a secure region) to the east coast between Kuantan and Cherating. There you have to look for small ditches and running waters with tea coloured water (coming from former rainforest regions on a peaty ground). Take the sieve and try to catch in the riparian vegetaion (not in the free water), some in 30-50 cm, some only in one meter depth. Not at the surface as the other labyrinths. It’s not as easy as catching barbs or Trichopsis which you get in the free water swimming. In this region P. nagyi is still abundantly to be found, especially now after the spawning period. You find nagyi over there even in different forms; the Kuantan form differs from the Cherating form. The form of Pekan Nenasi is slightly different than the form from Cukai.
If I lived in Singapore, I should go there and catch my fish myself. Every year more small waters are polluted or destroyed. You do no harm to the populations if you catch some indivuduals and try to breed them in your aquarium.
There are other places for the other Malaysian species, but I should begin with nagyi; you cannot miss them, I presume.
Right, I agree. The last fish swimming from the right to the left is probably a sumatranus male. The others are not as clear as this to be seen.
Females in principle have the same black dot at the end of the dorsal, but often it is subdued.This private import might be a mix, that’s a problem. Nevertheless: P. sumatranus is very rarely traded. You should definitely buy the individuals that are most clearly to be recognized.
And since it is a private import, Helene’s hope to meet them in Kopenhagen (or ours in Germany) is not very likely. Sorry to say.
Bartian, that is exciting news … i f… the fish are really P. sumatranus. But I doubt it. Even sumatranus have a very small filament in the caudal fin, in both sexes (1 mm, but clearly to be seen). Additionally, the wohle colouring and the stripes on the body are somewhat different, especially the lowest faints into a very small streak. At last, most fish are slimmer than bintan-like forms, a bit reminding at parvulus and ornaticauda. (There are broader types however, too).
The fish you describe is certainly not filamentosus but probably a bintan-like form from Sumatra. But why do you guess it’s sumatranus? This should be clearly recognizable by the structure and colours. O doubt that, not in principle, but because of your description.If they are sumatranus, then: buy! Buy! We lost nearly all of them in our stocks! They are most interesting: with head-up display steeper than ornaticauda!
A new dimension of terror against the indigene rainforest people. An urgent information:
Hello, Prof. Dr. Peter Finke (peter.finke@t-online.de) recommends this page to you: “Indonesia: terror and eviction for palm oil”
You may visit the page here:
https://www.rainforest-rescue.org/mailalert/936/indonesia-terror-and-eviction-for-palm-oil?ref=taf
Dear Bill, you are fully right in pointing out that my species description in the species section needs to be supplemented as P. nagyi forma Pekan Nenasi is concerned. I shall do it as soon as possible. In the meantime, Stefanie has given a very good translation of the text in our book.
A Merry Christmas, Peter
