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Intermediate note:
Well, interesting replies. In summary I’ve got the impression that most of you are good followers of the norms you imposed yourself.
If this is right, the main explanation is the number of tanks to be cared for. If I had only three or five of them, oh, I think all would be OK. But there are 33 small 12-liter-tanks waiting for water change. So, I experience myself as more or less idle and careless. Sometimes, not permanently, fortunately.
The problem is: Fish mostly stand it. There is a reduction of spawnings, of course, but nothing really bad. I even take it to help the fish with conditions of lesser challenging them to spawn, from time to time. But I guess that I am wrong in many cases. Instead, they are challenged by deteriorating environmental conditions. The problem is that they for long periods don’t react with illness or even worser things; so I think: OK, let’s wait with changing water a further week. But this probably is wrong. I know it and I don’t behave better, nevertheless. At least sometimes.
Well, I think: With many tanks you either need (1) help or (2) technical means to facilitate water change. Prepared water with the right values stored for direct usage is not enough for that purpose. No, I mean water drain pipes from every single tank and water change pipes towards it.
Or reduce the number of species/tanks. This I meant by my wish to be frank. Let’s wait for the next postings.
You have to control the pH in any case, of course. Often, it is not neutral any longer (as it was in former days) but acid by the acid substances in the air. I have never seen it to be too much acid, but sometimes too little, and it has to be adjusted a bit.
Speaking of pure rain-water I meant not to mix it up with tap water or something else.
Bartian is probably right and I am wrong. The reason is – not for the first time – bad photographs. We are often asked to tell what species it is by giving really bad photos which do not show the necessary details. The main characteristics of P. pahuensis are (in both sexes!) the many whitish or silvery spots on the unpaired fins which resemble those of linkei. But rarely both sexes are seen in such different a fin-colour between male and female as in these fish. In this species it is often rather difficult to distinguish males and females. Mostly, of course, the males are more intensely coloured, but I have rarely seen pahuensis such greatly different than here.
The explanation is obviously that the animals are still rather young ones. And they are presented to us not in the typical dress but with very marked stripes on the bodies. In this mood the marked blotches tend to be hidden by the stripes (or the other way around in other species: there seem to be such blotches but they disappear when the stripes disappear, take some bintan-forms; intermediate is paludicola that sometimes (in some local forms) show marked blotches (as in the scientific description) and often do not).
But Bartian has rightly pointed out that the body shape is different than that of most anjunganensis. It appeared a bit strange to me, I admit, but I have seen divergent body shapes of many species already. Nevertheless I think that we should prefer to use photographs of typically coloured and developed animals because many of the users of this site are beginners who are easily confused by half-grown and not fully coloured animals.
I should be interested to see better photos of these animals, because now I want to know whether these strong differences in fin colouration between the sexes are always to be seen or only in exceptional situations. And I want to see whether the typicial spotted appearance of the unpaired fins in both sexes (!) is not yet to be seen at all (because they are still too young) or not.
[quote=”Stefanie” post=2191][quote=”Sverting” post=2190]P. anjunganensis.[/quote]
That’s what I would have said – looking at that single picture.
But it’s not anjunganensis.[/quote]I don’t understand, as probably Sverting does. This is anjunganensis and nothing else.
[quote=”Sverting” post=2182] Females of this form have coloured unpaired fins, with an exception of tail.[/quote]
Sverting: Either a good photo or a better description would be helpful: coloured, what colour? what situation? always? in special situations? What structure has the colouration? The whole fins? part of the fins? We know of many Paro-females that get some colour in their normally uncoloured fins when angry, when frightened, when mating … Very obvious is this in filamentosus-females for instance, partly in nagyi-females, or in tweediei-females.
Some more details, please! It’s too vague.
Helene, of course we should and will do so. But we must and shall ask all proprietors of relevant photos – if we know them – one by one für permission to use their photos for that purpose. I am quite sure most will allow us to do this for the sake of comparison. Especially since our website takes the rights’ problem more serious than most others do.
The question is only where to do it and how. The possibility I would suggest – as blue line is concerned – would be at the other-forms-blue-line page. I hope that we will generally proceed with the other-forms pages this year. Then we could do the same with relevant photos to other other-forms (e.g. spec. Sentang or other species from the Sumatranian bintan-types).
I am back from lecturing at a foreign university.
And I am happy about the development of our Forum. In recent time the discussions have become more lively and more substantial. Very good!
As the fish without a clear location are concerned: That’s one of the problems of Paro-aquaristics. If I see our latest censuses the share of fish without location has risen again. There were some years (especially 2008/2009) when Horst Linke made his investigative tours on Sumatra and detected spec. Danau Rasau (now gunawani), spec. Langgam (now phoenicurus), and quite some others (specc. Dua, Sungaibertam, Pematunglumut, etc.) when the share of our fish with location rose sonsiderably. We interpreted that as our stock becoming more valuable; the share of the traded fish went down. But we were unable to breed all those forms, some having come in very small numbers: four or five fish; if one of them is ill (maybe the only female), then your prospects fall considerably.Today, the share of traded fish has grown again; the new spring census will show it clearly.
But today I should be more careful with my interpretative wording. Although it is very good if you have fish with a clear locality, this does not mean automatically (1) that you know the species (often it’s undescribed from over there, it’s a bintan-type, and then you are as knowing as before), and it does not mean (2) that your fish are of lesser beauty than others.Lennart’s “blue line” are typical blue-lines of the type of the first shipments we received in 2005/2006, with brilliant colours (more brilliant that those of spec. Sentang) and whitish and rather longish filaments of the ventrals. It’s mostly the ventrals in which the other imports of so-called blue-lines differed. There is a clear distinction from harveyi which always has a broader black rim at the tail’s end, but the colours are similarly brilliant.
Unfortunately, I did not photograph those old imports because I am not a fish-photographer. There are a few old pictures some better most of lesser quality. It’s a good suggestion to place them together, but often we don’t know the photographer and in other cases we alck the rights to do that. As a website which takes that problem of the rights serious (most do not) this creates some problems. But perhaps we find a solution.
But generally speaking: One reason why Paro-aquaristics is as interesting as it is is the fact that there are still many unsolved problems. We have many whishes what would be best: to have all the forms genetically investigated, all clear species named, to have exact knowlegde about the distributions, and so on. But this is wishful thinking. Slowly, we approach that Holy land of satisfied wishes, but at the meantime we must be content with many unclear forms. But beautiful forms, Lennart, just as your “blue-lines”!
1. In nature we only know of three cases with two different Paro-species ocurring in the same habitat at different ecological niches: the one is anjunganensis and ornaticauda, the other is opallios and linkei, and the third is bintan and deissneri on Bintan-island at least in one of the known localities. In all these cases (especially the first two) these species differ to quite a remarkable extent one from the other. All other species occur singly in a river system of their own, only accompagnied by other fish. There are some unclear relations in parts of Western Malaysia (Kota Tinggi region) concerning the ocurrence of tweediei, alfredi and spec. Kota Tinggi, but this is additionally made difficult by the man-made modifications of landscape and water management.
2. In the aquarium it is advisable to keep all species separated especially because of the females (as is underlined by Ted and Helene, too). If you want to or must keep males of different species together this certainly is possible because of the very similar ecological needs, but it depends on the dimensions of the tank, of course, to avoid constant quarrels and other problems. Every male needs a cave and a district of the tank for its own if the animals should be kept in rather naturak a way. Of course, many breeders have the problem to keep growing young fish in the same tank for rather long a time, but the more they grow the motto is: the larger the better. But in principle it is possible to keep males of different species in one tank together. Mostly there are no more problems (but sometimes less) than keeping to much males of the same species in too small a tank.
O yes. That article by Matt Ford is very good indeed. The illustrations of every few sentences by a photograph are excellent. Some years ago we had a discussion among aquarists how to avoid the use of peat. And there are cheap and easy to collect natural things that allow to avoid the use of peat. Even the simple reduction of pH is possible by the use of phosphorus acid, for instance. If you use alder cones and leaves additionally for the humic substances you don’t need to buy that peat for gardneners or even (in the smallest of all packages) for aquarists.
Helene, I am an admirer of your new photos, too!
And it surely is a task of some importance to photograph females and young growing fish. Of course, the females of many bintan-variants differ only slightly, but to compare the females of prnaticauda, parvulus, filamentosus, nagyi, harveyi, allani, opallios, deissneri, tweeidiei or phoenicurus and even of some non-described forms as spec. Ampah or spec. Sungai Stunggang maybe highly informative. In fact, we surely must supply some colour features into some of the descriptions, but that should be assisted by good photos of females.
Another interesting question is: At what age could one distinguish sex in growing young? THis should be assited by good photos, too.
Of course, we should always think of the potential damage the aquarist hobby is responsible for. But as far as we know this in not one of the Parosphromenus problems.
Nearly all Parosphromenus in the zoo-trade are wild-caught animals. Nobody in Asia breeds the “difficult” fish of the blackwaters. Catching them is a work for poor people in the country. But they don’t catch in all seasons. It would be much too hard and troublesome. They concentrate on the after-breeding season when the waters abound with young. Of course, Parosphromenus are difficult to be caught even then (because they hide in the riparian grasses and the layers of leaves on the ground and don’t swim in the free water, but when the young have grown to half an inch or a bit more many are to be caught in waters which at other times of the year seem to be empty of them.
We have never heared of this deadly damaging a population; it would be much too hard to catch to that extent. The deadly dangers of Parosphromenus lie in the destruction of the rainforest and the exploitation of the peat soils by that palm-oil-plantations (and to a minor extent by chemical immissions and the construction of streets and settlements).
Every year thousands of young Parosphromenus of quite a few species are caught this way and some hundreds die in Asia already mostly short after having been caught and not properly cared for with fresh water. Many hundreds are shipped to other continents in more or less bad condition. Once a German wholesaler phoned us that he had just received 800 ornaticauda (a difficult species) and half of them were dead at that moment or nearly dead already.) We could save about 80 of them burt most died after two or three weeks because of the stress they had to endure.
Mostly, the commercial trade concentrates on large populations (as that of spec. Sentang or spec. “Blue line” on Sumatra). Most other species are uninteresting commercially. It’s a speciality if you get opallios or filamentosus, and you never get deissneri or allani.
There is only one way out for the aquarists, and that is breeding, breeding, breeding, and the distriution of the young to as many friends as possible. Each Paro-friend should breed his fish. Self-bred fish are more healthy than all that have been experienced the commercial martyrium.
Ted, what is DOA?
Your description seems to match with the description of opallios indeed. Of course it could be some other species with reddish parts, but there is some probability it’s opallios indeed.
I think, this is an important message for your fellow-americans to see that there are some more rare species available in the U.S. (because that is the biggest problem over there: most of your colleagues don’t know how to get these fish!) and the shipping does obviously has be done orderly and not harmed the animals very much.
I suggest you should mail this in our American forum too! Maybe the same sender has other species to offer, too.
The other thing is that this is likely to confirm what we knew already: that opallios is presently in trade in different countries, in Europe too. And: P. opallios is not very often in trade. And a third thing: We are definitely at a loss with good photos of that species. So, after some time, have a try!
I wish you success with your new fish. P. opallios is sometimes a bit delicate. I hope the fish you received are healthy and will develop well.
Some remarks on “Blue line”-Paros:
As all of you know by now the name-giving of the fish-traders is chaotic. There are only two leading principles that seem to be of commercial value only: first, give a name that gives rise to interesting thoughts and connotations, so that people buy the fish (“Giant red sparkling licorice gouramy”). Second: helplessness. All these fish look alike, but the experts say they are different! OK, some have red, others only blue, so let those with red be called “Red line” and that with blue be called “Blue line”. In 2005 we had in Europe lots of “Red line”-Paros. It is not clear up to the present day what it was; probably different species mixed or not mixed; totally unclear.
And at the same time the “Blue lines”. Here, the situation is different, for it was the time when the rich Paro-habitats on Sumatra were found and the exploitation started. Since then we learned that Sumatra harbours several new species but a lot of bintan-like forms, too. They may (partly) even be identical with bintan, but we don’t know hitherto. Among those bintan-like forms were (and are) two from the north of Jambi, spec. Blue line the one and spec. Sentang the other.
Personally, I had three different fish all called “Blue line” already, all coming from the trade business. One had long light blue ventrals, with long filaments nearly white, others had ventrals with short blueish filaments, both very beautiful fish but decisively different. And the third had some brownish-failtly reddish tinge in the caudal, equally nice. And additionally spec. Sentang, which always was less colourful, a bit greenish or brownish. less glamourous, with less sparkling blue markings.
Obvioulsly, the traders are not interested in clearing that up. They even hide to locations, and it is the locations that ate the pathways to better identification. Horst Linke told me that the catchers who earn a cent for ten fish throw the fisg from the next river into the box with the fish from the first if there is place left. Nobody cares to distinguish if the fish are as similar as bintan-variants are.
But, although it is unclear what they are and the experts are angry and grumble at this practice, the trade continues to name them “blue line”. Apart from the fact that the mixture of fish caught in different river systems is definitely wrong, we cannot – at present – hope to reveal the “right identity” behind the so-called Blue lines. To all our knowledge all of them come from Sumatra and there is never a harveyi or a species from Kalimantan mixed between them. All we can do is to separate the different Blue lines and take them as Blue line 1, Blue line 2, and so on. As far as we know there is no well-known species behind, only (perhaps) bintan. And we can say the following: If there is at all a single species (or two) behind the label “Blue line”, all are from Jambi/Sumatra. That is for certain (at least as our present-day-knowledge is concerned). (This as a reply to Steff’s remark that there are so-called Blue lines available at Tokyo).
Two more remarks: Sverting, it is very unlikely that P. gunawani is mixed in, since we have never had Gunawani in recent years besides two personel non-profit imports of a few animals only. The are really stout, robust fish. There were two imports of them before in the nineties of the last century, and the fish were called Jambi 1 and Jambi 2, but the latter probably was not gunawani but spec. Sentang or “Blue line”. The former cerrainly was the fish that was recently called gunawani.
And Steff: nice linguistic plays. Yes, translation is the next source for misunderstandings …
No, as far as I know there is no indication that this phenomenon is more often observed in P. harveyi than in other species. You could ask Martin Fischer or Bernd Bussler who both are good breeders of this species and did raise several bigger broods each.
The most cases of a single sex in a brood that I know of were observed with nagyi. But in one case (me) it was (nearly) only females, in the other (Hallmann), only males, nearly. Günter Kopic info(at)guenter-kopic.de has a lot of experience in these things.
