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I have always given the advice to put one pair in a small tank (10-20 liters) if you want to breed licorice gouramies. But there are many people who don’t think of breeding, only of keeping nice aquariums with a group of those fish, and then you will get this problem.
To solve it you can only separate the pairs. In the present setting success of only one of them is not sure. The gallon jar could be a temporary solution.
There are only two perfect possible solutions: Either, you concentrate on one good pair and give the others away. Or you set up more tanks. Breeding tanks should be small (see above). I have no technical devices in them, even no filter. But then you must use good growing swimming Ceratopteris, java moss and the like. And you must be prepared to change water regularly every week. Two or three small tanks of this kind equal less than one big tank. And you could compare different pairs in their breeding success.
As I told in another context, when males are absent dominant females could appear similar to subdominant males and exhibit certain colour features that they don’t show normally (even in the caudal, dorsal and anal fins). I remember to have seen this very clearly in a “widow” of a deceased male P. tweediei. The extreme is P. ornaticauda, where females in normal courtship appear temporarily just like males, even with the red flame in the caudal fin. I remember the first time when I saw this: I thought that there were two males in the tank, but I remembered to have put a pair into it. It was a pair.
But it’s a completely different thing with parvulus. The females never dress like males. Only in the absence of males some could show that bluish fine borderline of the anal and dorsal fin. It’s obviously a matter of different location forms: the one do it, the other not. Since P. patvulus is probably the Paro with the most comprehensive occurrence, these differentiations are very likely to have occurred in the evolution of this species generating variants that still belong to the same species, however.
Sverting’s method with that old female nylon stocking is a good one. It is used by experienced breeders for long.
I am back to the net, having visited a foreign university, and a hardware failure prevented me from joining your discussions during the last week.
Let me add some points, Helene did mention the most important things quite correctly before:– P. parvulus is just as P. ornaticauda one of the two species with a very deviating behaviour scheme. That fluttering of the fins and that “courtship dance” of the male with heads up is remarkable within the genus.
– Presently we know at least two or three variants according to the locations: animals from Tangkiling, from Babugus, and from the surroundings of Palangkaraya. The differ a little in the colouring of the male’s unpaired fins. Some are more reddish (Babugus), some more blackish (Tangkiling) and some in-between (Palangkaraya).
– The scientific describer of the species, Dr. Jörg Vierke (Germany) was unable to breed it himself at that time (forty years ago). It was too difficult.
– Even the first who bred it, German master breeder Günter Kopic (see his website http://www.guenter-kopic.de) and his article in the “Amazonas”-issue) was nearly unable to do so. He was successfull only when he lowered the pH to just below 3.0 (!!). And then he observed that the larvae had difficulties to slip out of the egg-shells.
– Later breeders did not observe the same problems, only pH was critical in nearly every case. I have observed several spawnings, but always the eggs disappeared after two days. Only when I lowered the pH to below 4.0 this stopped. A clear indication that the eggs are very delicate and sensible to germ-aggression.
– Often, parvulus breeds again when the previous larvae have not left the cave yet. You find larvae and fresh eggs mixed together.
– The eggs are remarkably big for that small species and the larvae sometime take freshly hatched (!!) brine shrimp naupliae of the Califormia brand (the smallest( !). Bust mostly you have to start feeding with Rotatoriae (better) or Paramecium (mostly these suffice).
– The flower pots are much too big for that species. Additionally, they have the disadvantage of their ceiling being often not horizontally situated, so that the bubbles and the eggs tend to slip out. P. ornaticauda and P. parvulus like the smalles caves of all Parosphromenus species; mine habe an opening of less than half an inch (1,5 cm). It’s no surprise that the male accepted the bamboo-cave at once.
– Place the cave at any rate that way that you could easily look into it with a torch.
– There are breeders who usually take the cave out and place it in a separate tank with exactly the same water. Often, it is taken out by shutting the opening witha finger including the caring male and everything goes on in the new tank. But the safer way is certainly as Helene suggested: catch the old out of the tank.
– At any rate let the male do its caring work until the larvae begin to swim horizontally. During the last days before they dash around within the cave and the male has a lot to do catching them and placing them at the ceiling again. When they swim correctly, this behaviour ends. Its a matter of one day. You must try to find the right moment.
– Do not try to raise eggs yourself. It’s possible but very difficult. The germs will destroy everything. You must use antibacterial means. The care of the male is the best alternative.
– Nevertheless: just with parvulus, there are often young growing together with the parents in the same tank if there is much hiding structure especially at the bottom (peat, leaves). Try it, but be patient (as Helene says)for at least three or four weeks. You will find no young in that time, but probably they are there nevertheless. And they must find nourishment!
– If you have a spawning pair it will repeat that spawning behaviour very often. So, not be disappointed if the first will fail for some reasons. But you should find out for what and change it.
– Water changing is good, but I should be careful about it during the first weeks of the larvae and young. I soemtimes change no water for about eight weeks in a small 10-liter-tank in that situation, if plants (as Ceratopteris, but growing, not simply present!) work as hygienic factors. P. parvulus is, if the general conditions are good not very delicate.
– Congratulations. Having success with the breeding of P. parvulus indicates that you are on the right track! The experience with breeding thiose two slim species is mixed. Most report it as difficult, but some report it as easy. Myself, I found ornaticauda difficult each time, but parvulus easy. The explanation is probably: It depends on the fish-individuals. There are pairs that make things easy, and there are others who even don’t begin with it at all. But we are not sure. It’s a hypothesis. Anyway, if you have a spawning pair of parvulus, you are lucky and should try to make more of them!There can be quite intense female colouration in certain circumstances. One need not to take ornaticauda where te female could even look like a male during courtship. I once had a trio of P. tweediei. The male died and the two tweediei females fought which is dominant. After some time, the dominant female looked like a subdominant male. It was a striking experience, because this colouration lasted for weeks. If I did not know it was a female I should have thought it to be a weak male. And you know that tweediei has striking colours!
But nevertheless I think your animal is a male and not a female. Time will show. For long times young or subdominant males do not show the full splendour. There must not be another male present; it is sufficient to have females which enforce their needs.
That’s one of the reasons why the best Paro-breeders have nearly empty tanks. If you want to have these fish decorate a nicely planted tank filled with wooden items and so on, you can nearly forget to catch them. At least with a net. A net is not the best means for catching Paros, not in nature and not in the aquarium (see below).
This is why I say: Paros are no fish for the normal decorative aquarium if you intend to catch them. You could build a fine jungle for them but then you must be sure what you put in. You won’t get it out again without disturbing and destroying everything. Often however some months later you could get mucz more fish out than you put in before. But together with the whole content.
When I visit one of our colleagues to get a fish from them (or vice versa someone comes to me for that purpose), we, keeping medium decorative tanks, have to take everything (remember Helene’s words!) out before we could begin catching, often even the gravel, if there is some at all. This is quite normal. The only difference is that I have not so many decorative requisits in the tank than those people who take the decorativity to be of first importance.
In nature, mostly nets are completely useless, too. Paros don’t swim freely in the water like barbs or rasboras. They hide in dense vegetation. The only method is to take big (!) firm plastic or metal sieves and sort the content out.
In a decorated tank you could be successful with a catching pipe made from glass (“glass fishing bell”). In former time this requisit was popular among all breeders and sellers of fish. It was offered in the pet shops everywhere. But today it has disappeared. The plastic nets have won. There is only one much too big type of “fishing bell” left made from cheap plastic for catching big cichlids, and even this is offered in one big shop in Germany only. But it is useless for Paros in small decorated tanks. Forget ist.
However, a German member of our network (Stephan Menzel) has found a small glass manufactory that is ready to produce it again in small sizes: looking like a pipe with an opening of about four centimeters only. (By the way: There is a short article by him on this issue in the “Betta News” edition that could be downloaded now here from our homepage, see pages 28/29).
This instrument looks much less “dangerous” to fish than nets. Indeed it is more difficult to be recognized at all. Of course, you have to prepare to use it. One certainly must learn to handle it, but then you could often be successful even in decorated tanks.
1. The pair looks like a pair ready fpr spawning. Place the cave so that you could have a conveniant look into it, using a small torch. The eggs will be fixed to (if there are some, already) the ceiling of the cave if the water is (nearly) free of Calcium. Our best breeders place all their caves in the middle of the small tank containing the breeding pair just two inches behind the front glass with the opening to the front.
2. Daphnia are a good additional food but the fish will not get ready to spawn if they are fed only Daphnia. You mixture is good.
3. Moina are very good, go ahead with them. Sometimes their continuous cultures proves to be a bit tricky. They like fresh baker’s yeast and water really cloudy from that. quite different than Daphnia. No aeration. Mine do best in small shallow vessels.
3. There are breeders who take Cyclops to be the best food at all. But I don’t think they could be grown artificially; they must be caught in ponds in nature.
4. Brine shrimp are good in all stages; even with baby brine shrimp adult Paros could be brought to be ready for spawning. Not very good is to feed baby brine shrimp that are some days old without being fed themselves. They are practically “empty”, of nearly no nourish value at all. I feed them nevertheless, but not as main food.
5. Gammarus (not Grammarus) are too big for most Paros; but Gammarus-offspring could be very good indeed.
6. If you have young other shrimps, they are mostly very good; e.g. Caridina parvidentata.Darkening (in the male) ist mostly a matter of temper. My main filamentosus male becomes nearly black all over if he is really in spawning mood. In between he will become much lighter again.
In spec. Ampah we normally see no red at all. If the caudal contains red or reddish brown and there are marked reddish parts in the anal and dorsal it’s more likely filamentosus. The females become very light (as other licorice) in spawning mood. With spec. Ampah, there are nearly always very marked and rather broad black bands to be seen in the unpaired fins, even in the females.
I do not think that the “darkening” of Ray’s fish is a matter of the water parameters (but I would not exclude that). It’s more likely that it is a matter of temper and mood, and that means: it is a transitory phenomenon.
Dear Helene, yes, it is very worrying indeed. The most worrying thing is the situation of the natural habitats. I often meet people who say: Well, it’s a pity what is happying there, but there are still all species present.
Yes, as far as we know all which we know are living still the present day. But we can be pretty sure that some are no longer to be found which we have never encoutered.
And the other thing that is not to be forgotten is: “Fish present” don’t not mean: “Fish healthy and natural stock without any problems; everything in order”. We have more and more reason to believe that the genetic stock of many animal species (whether of insects or amphibians or fish, etc.) are partly affected by environmental damage. Think of the huge amounts of environmental toxins and poisons that are spread in the air especially in the tropics, for isntance the countreis in south-east Asia that hope to improve their economic welfare by the huge palm-oil plantations. Much of this must get into the soil and rivers, and nobody cares.
With fish, the most likely indication is not clear outer damage of their bodies or their behaviour, but in the first line the sex ratio. The best thing I can say at this issue is: We have a few clear cases only so far.
But it is quite obvious with aquarium fish although we do not spray environmental poisons into our tanks, of course. But we must control the environmental factors we place at their disposal. Too cool or too warm, too high pH (too low is hardly possible), too high a calcium content, missing humic substances, too many germs: all could contribute to a misture with the result of an uneven sex ratio.
The difficulty is: All this works together, is a complex system. You cannot say: temperature too high, or pH too high, and so on. There is an interrelation vice versa that make things difficult. This is what science tell us. It cannot tell us for each single case: That’s it. You must assess it yourself as open minded as possible.
Nevertheless, one should not be frightened: Mostly things work out quite well. But one should know this system of environmental factors that influence the final determination of sex in fishes.
One always should bear in mind that the sex of a fish-individual is not determined in the moment of fertilization (as we know it with mammals or birds) but happens days or weeks later by environmental factors. Temperature, pH, the content of humic substances and other factors: all could contribute to the decision. We sometimes have an outcome totally of either one sex or the other; then one or several of these factors have been near to a limiting value during the first life-time of the young.
Another thing is the fact that in the trade of wild caught Paros sometimes only one sex is sold. Some years ago a German wholesaler asked me by two photos which species it is; the official name was – as usual – “deissneri”. It was spec. Sentang (of course), but the striking fact was: the photos showed only male individuals, about 200 or more (see photo of similar situation below). I had for long no explanation for this phenomenon. Nobody has the time or reason to select the fish artificially. But there is a worrying explanation: More and more the habitats are damaged by many factors (e.g. chemical pollution). Often we find Paros today no longer in their traditional natural rainforest habitats (because they are destroyed) but in poor side canals of roads and other water bodies heavily changed by human activity. Take light only: If the rainforest is gone, there is much more light than before. The huge mass of leaves and wood formerly falling down into the waters is missing. The pH changes, often the temperature is higher (or lower) than before. Therefore we cannot exclude that such monosex offspring is to be found in “nature” already.
I do no use self-made oak-essence (except using self sought oak-leaves and alder cones). I use the essence “following the receipt of Hans Stein” which is traded in Germany by Fa. Zajac, and sometimes the pH-reduction-acid of Fa. Sera (“pH minus”). I never had negative effects on the conductance, at least not very high ones. But I know that those products vary in quality, that’s certainly a problem. One must be somehow lucky, or use pure phosphoric acid. And at any rate one has to measure the effect.
If you use pure H 2 O (as I do by using that full demineralization device) there is no serious problem. The simplest way seems to me to use pure rain water. Again I repeat that all people whom I know that they are working on this base have no problems with breeding our fish. Among them are the best Paro-breeders I know. Some even maintain that pure rain water is better than anything else. I do not know whether this is true or a belief only; I could only say that it does no harm whatsoever and works well. And myself I work with a different method rather successfully.
All advice given here that implies to be cautious is good and should be followed by a beginner with Paros. But let me tell you that I very often have experienced quite the contrary: Licorice gouramies that are healthy in normal condition are not especially sensitive or “fragile”. Let me tell you how I do it in most cases:
– I have a place with the right water prepared with the right low mineral content and the right low pH. The first should lie between 10 and 80 Microsiemens/cm; mostly it is around 30-50. The second should be between 4 and 6. Since I use a demineralization-device I take the water from there (since it is nearly pure H2O), mix very few tap water in (“a cup”), give some drops (!) of my oak-essence or phosphorus-acid, constantly controlling the pH, and that’s it. If you use a RO-device you mostly could use the water directly coming from it, but often you have to adjust at least the pH. If you use good rain water: take it directly. Mostly the pH is acidly enough already. Many friends have good success with pure rain water. Many lower the pH with good acid peat. OK, that’s fine, but it is not necessary.
– So the water ist the most important thing. Prepare it before and control its values before you fill it in the tank.
– I clean a used 12-liter-tank (I only have these in my rack) thoroughly with hot water
– Then I add a layer of small-grained brownish gravel or peat (millimeters only, much less than one centimeter)
– Next come the small pieces of well-soaken wood, best freshly from a peat-cutting place, or, if not weak and fouling, recycled from the old tank or a bucket with destilled water
– and the well-cleaned cave
– and a big leaf of Terminalia catappa upright at the back side, held by a piece of the wood. Sometimes I add a few alder-cones, too. Mostly dry, they will sink down the next days. They especially will darken the water and contribute to a low pH.
– Then I place the tank in the rack
– Then I fill it about half with a watering-can; the water should have a temperature between 20 and 24 degrees Celsius
– Then I give about 5 to 20 well-soaken leaves of oak or beech on the ground, some here, less there
– Then I add a few small plants (small young plants of swimming Ceratopteris: the best, Javamoss, Javafern, Salvinia, perhaps a small rank of a Ludwigia). Plants, together with the wood, are structuring the free water space for our fish that come from dense riparian niches. Additionally, especially the Ceratopteris help with water hygiene by growing fastly and lowing the organic loadens from feeding
– Then I add the rest of water
– And then – don’t scream and be frightened! – I add the pair of Paros, immediately after! I have never experienced a loss of the fish by that quick set-up. Of course, you should not do if you are not certain about your wood. If it leads to the development of cloudy bacteria-population it is the wrong wood, you must throw it out immediately. But if you are sure of it then there is no danger for the fish. If the wood is well-soaken since weeks (or was never dry: the best). In a tank with a thick layer of gravel you have much more bacteria-problems. Then you cannot follow my method and you go more risks. If you have used a much thicker layer of gravel (the normal aquarium thickness for planting rooted plants) then be cautious and wait.
– The fish mostly will need some days for coming acquainted with their new home and its structure. But the they will display and mostly spawn. Sometime they spawn even the second day in the morning already.
– If there is a marked development of bacteria you have made a mistake. Mostly with the wood or the gravel.But to say it again: If you are uncertain about the fish, the wood, the water: follow the advice of the other friends and their remarks before mine, taking more time. My intention only was to say: Don’t be frightened. Good Paros (from a private breeder who knows to handle them) are not delicate or especially sensitive. They are hardy if they receive their proper environment. Mostly there is no risk of getting things much more quicker to the end. In a real blackwater-tank you have some problems more than the normal aquarist has, but you have some problems less, too. For instance the bacteria-problem of a fresh set-up.
[quote=”Stefanie” post=1751] But what should I be patient for, then? If they’re definitely all females …………[/quote]
Who said “definitely”? Nobody. It’s a hypothesis. We only wanted to tell you: don’t exclude females at all. We cannot be sure from your desriptions and pictures. This at least is what I said. It’s a possibility that has to be taken serious. And you have not seen it like this before; you thought of males only. Therefore I repeat: Be patient and wait for the further development of these fish and their future behaviour and colouration. I must wait too. I am far from certainty.
[quote=”Peter Finke” post=1746](…) A faint reddish tone in the unpaired fins could occur even with females of some species in typical situations. (…)[/quote]
I think Martin is right as I said already (see above quotation).
Dear Bartian, don’t be annoyed by my answer but it is really impossible to identify a bintan-variant by such descriptions and drawings. It would be of much more help if you could say some words about where or whom did you get the fish from, and any additional information you could squeeze out of this person or trader regarding the question whom or where he did get these fish from.
Otherwise we all must wait. Wait for good (!) photos.
