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Ray, your fish are most likely not spec. Ampah. The male you show us is too colourful; the reddish tone in the caudal is typical for filamentosus. The spec. Ampah looks somewhat like “black and white” with some brown bands in the dorsal and anal. And the black bands are rather clearly marked. Some have extended filaments, too, others not. All females of filamentosus have smaller filaments than the males, but they have.
The relationship of Ampah to filamentosus is clearly to be seen. The only question is: Is Ampah a separate species or is it a less colourful form of filamentosus? The classical location of filamentosus is about 200 km south, but it is most likely to extend far more north.
These fish are definitely not phoenicurus. The main determination marker for that species (the one which rightly is mentioned as decisive in the scientific dscription) is the structure and colouring of the caudal. Your fish have normal bintan-like caudals. A faint reddish tone in the unpaired fins could occur even with females of some species in typical situations. You must be more patient, and then we must have good photos which is difficult, I know.
If your fish is from trade (and a private breeder would have given you a correct determination), then this is an additional hint that it is not phoenicurus. This species was never traded. All fish we have originate from one private import by H. Linke. Presently the species is distributed at three or four breeders in Germany only; the best is our member Martin Fischer (Würzburg), author of our Wikipedia-site. There is no indication whatsoever that the trade has detected this species already, for two reasons. First: The species-description is too new; that may be different next year. But second: We know it from one small location only; too tiny for commercial aims. Only if new locations could be detected this will have an effect on the traders. But I doubt it. The characteristic of this part of Sumatra in the Jambi-district is the rather close neighbourship of several similar forms nevertheless distinct. We know of very few locations with two species occuring together in one habitat. In all of these cases the two are clearly distinct not only by structure and colour, but mainly by the ecologic niche they inhabit. All this is not the case with those Sumatra-Paros.
German members of the P-P should, if possible, avoid – with a few exceptions, the most recent is spec. Ampah – fish from trade because of several reasons:
1. We have enough breeders with clearly determined stocks.
2. Many of these originate from privately wild caught animals with known and clear location.
3. Many species are available.
4. Everybody who does not know where and how should use the Distribution-button in our main-menue. There he/she will be directed to a breeder.
5. Even now, in winter time, some breeders will send the fish safely by parcel. I do not know of any other fish which could be such safely shipped in tinyest amounts of water.
6. Fish from trade are in rather many cases wrongly determined, often badly handled for long periods (no adequate food, no quietude, etc.), and therefore often in bad health.
7. Even in Asia already fish that are somewhat similar looking are thrown together in one tank by the catchers already when their catch at one place was too poor.
8. There most likely have been hybrids (at least between bintan-like forms) in the trade already not caused intentionally but because of negligence and improper care.Possible it is, but not very likely. There are at least eight rather similar forms that we know from Jambi/Sumatra. Three of these have been imported in recent years, five not. And it is highly improbable that it’s gunawani. We only have one small stock of it in Europe.
Typical for gunawani is the multicoloured band at the edges of the unpaired fins, and its rather stout, robust body (in adult animals).But if it is gunawani, then you are lucky and you must breed it; for the small stock in Horst Linke’s tank consists of females only!
You cannot judge by those photos – most of females, few of males – the species. It’s simpy impossible even for experts. The fish have been photographed in unfavourable conditions, they are frightened and do not show the colours we need to say which is which.
P. allani is nearly impossible. They come from only a few locations on Sarawak and have never been traded since about more than fifteen years. We had a few private imports only of very few animals. The breeding success was limited. They seem to be rare now in Sarawak (read the report of Chr. Hinz in our Asian forum, who visited the locations some weeks ago. The best is completely destroyed; there is a rice-field now. No commercial catcher has enough time to catch for a few fish).
Until we have better photos a determination is impossible. You only could exclude many species.
I doubt P. deissneri too. We never had them commercially. They are endemic on Bangka, and hitherto nobody is commercially catching over there. It’s not very likely things will change in near future.
Don’t you people forget the first international conference of the Parosphromenus-project which is scheduled for this year’s September 27-29 (main day the 28th) in Hamburg, Germany.
With a program of prominent speakers including Horst Linke (with films on the natural habitats) or Martin Hallmann (on behaviour) or Lukas Rüber (on Paro-genetices). And with a visit at Bernd Bussler’s breeding station and at least ten species to be bought at that occasion.
We very much hope for visitors and friends from many countries, including America and Asia.
In short time we shall start an enquiry on this homepage to ask who will come to visit that meeting. For in order to arrange it we must be sure of enough interest and people who intend to come.
As you said already, it is impossible to identify your fish positively as being opallios. All species of the bintan-harveyi-group, especially thos with more or less red in the unpaired fins (opallios, rubrimontis, tweediei, phoenicurus, could only be determined safely by very good, clear pictures.
But your question is: Does anything rule it out that it is opallios? And the answer is: No. On the contrary: There are some indications that it could be. The light-blue filaments of the ventrals, for instance. The faint indication of red in the back-part of the dorsal, the clear blackish marking at the outer end of the fins and the faint bluish line before: that all is characteristic of opallios. But not of it only, that’s the problem. We wait for better pictures!
Volker, allani could clearly be excluded (you said it yourself by comparing that picture of G. Kopic. But one has to say: this picture does not show the typicial allani; this big round spot is not to be seen in most individuals). P. allani is the only safe species occuring in Sarawak, and we had never commercial imports from there. Anyhow, allani was never commercially traded before at all. Once it will be the first, of course. But surely not this time.
But it could be sumatranus. This species is very hard to be photographed. The picture you show to us (by I. Koslowski) is the most colourful we have, and that is not typical. Most male sumatranus are much less colourful, sometimes even looking nearly black and white. There is a faint reddish tone in the caudal and sometimes clear reddish lines in the dorsal and anal, but rarely this overall reddish tinge of that photo.
P. sumatranus is a very strange species. It can have a slim body just similar to parvulus and ornaticauda, but in other populations it can have a higher body just similar to the “normal” Paros. Especially strange is the fact that in courtship the male displays head-up; I try to find an old photo of Karen Koomans. She bred the species with 5 pairs tigether in a tank of about 60 liters, and it looked like “a group of soldiers on parade”.
Additionally, there have been commercial imports of sumatranus several times; the last in Germany was about two years ago. The names are always wrong, of course.
So I conclude that your fish might well be this species, and I strongly advise you and your friends to buy some of them in order to breed them. As I said, in breeding they exhibit their full behaviour (and colours, I should add). But the main reason is: Our overall stock in the project is very small indeed. The danger of loosing them again is very high. If the species determination could be confirmed, you and your friends should have a try to enlarge our stock by offspring! To breed P. sumatranus is not as difficult as ornaticauda or some others and very rewarding.
Very good, let’ s see what comes out. Certainly, those temperature measurements of the fish catchers were all taken in daylight.
We must bear in mind, however, that Parosphromenus live in streaming waters, not in stagnant waters. That means probably a little more stability as temperature is regarded, but there should be a certain fluctuation nevertheless.
Of course, it will not be easy to interpret the results of your experiments since you probably cannot guarantee laboratory conditions. But let us see. At any rate, it’s the first time that somebody of this network takes personal measures in order to prove a hypothesis. That’s fine, indeed!
Sverting: a flood of questions, but of good questions. Mainly of questions that I am unable to answer. But I am rather sure that there are no tests comparing the productivity of females kept at different levels of temperature. “Test” is a strong word. There are nearly no “tests” of many aquarium problems, only experience. Many people exaggerate their own experience to general laws, and that’s a mistake. No, I know of no tests.
As Oodinium is concerned it’s obviously a serious problem of (not only, but mainly) softwater fish. Again, I don’t know whether the relation you mentioned is proved by a enough and sound experience.
Your other question regarding temperature are very interesting indeed, but there is little waht could serioulsy be called “knowledge”. Most expeditions measure temperature, but that are accidental values at accidental times. Probably there are measuring series in other contexts; it would be very helpful imdeed if somebody could advise us on that. I can’t.
But the last thing. My remark on the beginning breeding season did not in the first line refer to temperature but to rainfall. This, the beginning seasonal monsoon raining season, is the triggering factor you are searching for. This is related to changes in temperature, too, mainly dropping temperature, but the main thing is something else: the further reduction of dissolved minerals in the water, that are markedly “thinned out”, and the corresponding increase of solved organic materials. And this again results in a strong increase in microorganism-life which is he food basis for the young fish. Such are the main triggers in the beginning breeding season. Temperature is one factor among others but is probably less important. If so, more by dropping than by rising temperatures. Insofar you are right again.
I hope there will be time to respond in detail to this interesting article. But at present there is not. Therefore only a short commentary:
1. The most important thing seems to me that temperature is not the main problem for Parosphromenus-aquaristics. It may be for Discus (rather warm) or some Dario (rather cold) but I know of successfull breeding of Paros at different temperature-levels. I do not differentiate between keeeping and breeding. Breeding is the decisive test. Myself I have no heater in any of my small tanks. But the room temperature is in one case elevated to 23-24 degrees Celsius, in another to 2o-21. Good breeder friends artiiculate different experiences with temperature. The pioneer W. Foersch had no heater in all his tanks (varying 19-24 degrees Celsius), today the specialist M. Hallmann advocates higher temperatures (up to 27/28 degrees Celsius) than he did formerly. His argument is that such higher temperatures are measured at most locations in Indonesia and Malaysia presently. My opinion on this is that most present locations are more or less heavily disturbed, not natural any longer, with mostly missing rain-forest. Therefore, the influence of the sun is greater than at the unspoiled habitats.
2. Although the article is doubtlessly interesting and further discussion will be rewarding, it is (for our purposes) too general in my opinion. There are no thoughts on blackwater aquaristics and its specialities that make a difference to what 95% of the standard recommendations say. Nevertheless, the conclusion is similar. The author says: A stable temperature is non-natural; he is right. He says: Fish kept at lower temperatures live longer and are less prone to diseases; he is right if they are kept within their temperature tolerance – and this is bigger than often written and thought. But his conclusion “Keep fish at lower temperatures” is – to my opinion – wrong. It is too much generalized. And as Paros are concerned I should say more precisely: We have some problems (to care for a low germ level, to keep calcium out of the water, to maintain a rather stable pH, to feed them properly, avoiding Oodinium is a major problem, too) but temperature is not the problem with them. You can be successful at different levels.
That is a good instrument for a Paro friend. I measures in mg/cm (milligram pro centimeter). It’s the sum of all minerals dissolved in the water, yes, another wy of measuring but the same thing than waht you control with electric conductivity. Pure water (H 2 O) ist zero mg/cm. The original Paro-waters are between 7 (!) and 30 mostly, for aquarium usages we recommend 10 to 80. I try to keep it around 20 or 30 mostly. Then you will have no problems with the eggs staying adhesive when the male tries to fix them on the ceiling of the cave. With time, the value rises, but with the water changes (using destilled or osmosis water) you can reduce it again.
Look at http://joomla.igl-home.de/
To access the forum, you must follow the instructions there.
The IGl is a german association, the oldest in germany for labyrinth-fish. There is a working group on Parosphromenus that was founded by me eight years ago. But despite its name the IGL is not fully international. The IGL-homepage is completely in German, the Forum speaks German, too. The journal, “Der Makropode”, ist published in German only. Present president is Auke de Jong.
This monolingual activity was one of the reasons to establish the Parosphromenus-project as a world-wide network with an English-spoken forum and a homepage completely in three languages.
Nevertheless, many good specialists of licorice gouramies are members of the IGL. – There is a second association on labyrinth fish in Germany which is partially speaking English, too. It’s the EAC(AKL). It’s journal, the “Betta News”, is published bilingual, all articles are to be read in German and in English. Present president is Horst Linke.
Both associations are members of the Parosphromenus-project network, as are the other important associations in Europe (as e.g. the British AAGB or the French CIL).
Sverting, this is really interesting information. I think that both species are possible; they have been imported before several times.
P. filamentosus presently could be the new spec. Ampah: somewhat similar to filamentosus, less colourful (sometimes appearing “black-and-white”) but not less interesting looking. There have obviously been imports of Ampah called filamentosus. We’ll see. I recommend both – filamentosus and spec. Ampah – very much.
P. anjunganensis has been less often imported, but it has; and it is very much recommendable to buy it, although it is a bit less easy to keep and breed. The water values must be respected more exactly as with filamentosus. But from the point of the project it is especially good to try anjunganensis because we have only small stocks of this fish.
400 of each is a great number; too much I think. They won’t find enough aquarists for them.
The fish must be wild caught. Nobody breeds 400 filamentosus, not to speak of anjunganensis. It’s the first weeks of the new breeding season in nature now; most fish will still be rather small.
Please post the photos as soon as you get them. If there are some adult males among them we could tell whether both species are rightly determined.
Some questions and remarks:
1. Who or what is “LFS”?
2. It is very unusual that a blue band in the unpaired fins disappears altogether when displaying. Is this observation allright? I doubt it because you describe two males in an aggressive mood, not courtship.
3. This is the next point: Your fish show an aggressive colouring which is different from that of courtship. P. spec. Ampah show this strong brownish-blackish lines in the caudal, dorsal and the anal fins in aggressive situations, males and females. The latter in dorsal and anal only. But all Ampah lack blue bands at all!
4. Only a few of the Ampah-males show filaments, and they are mostly short. The caudals of some appear nearly (but not fully) rounded. At least in the males those blackish streaks must be visible.
5. P. allani is quite improbable, one could exclude that. This species is isolatedly living in Sarawak, and there is no one commercially catching Paros. Your description don’t fit to that species, either. It was never imported commercially so far. Besides, it does not show “brown fins”. The dorsal shows much red (and often a big black rounded spot), the anal much blue, and both have broad black lines at the edges.
6. Let us wait for good photos, but it could well be the case that you observed two aggressive aff. bintan-males.
7. But tell us how the dealer of the fish houses them: Are there several species obviously mixed in one tank, so that it would be easy to catch different species out? (Of course, mostly the mixing is not obvious, but factually that is possible). Are there spec. Ampah in that tank, too? Are there other companion-fish? Are there possibilities to hide?Contrary to many other discussions we had in this forum, this has developed to a very sophisticated level. We arrive at the border of our knowledge, at least mine. But I think it is not mine alone. The mechanisms of the participation of bacteria and funghi in creating, stabilizing and destabilizing a possible aquarium milieu are definitely poorly understood hitherto. The aquarium literature is to 95% a hobby literature on practice; all theory and too much science is avoided. There is little research in this field, apart from the specialists, but they are not interested in aquaria but in the general problems.
What I told here is the result of a long experience, not of investigations or even systematical tests of my own. I found it very useful to accidentally control the amount of “germs” by the practical kits that are available presently, although they are neglected by the bulk of the hobbyists and are not manufactured and sold by the aquarium industry. The thousands of “normal” aquarists don’t need them; we do, I think. And I found that there was a clear interrelation between the germ-density and the pH: low-low and high-high. This includes – to my experience – not only bacteria but funghi too. But this is a rather general statement, I admit. There are certainly differences between the development of bacteria and of funghi in the line of changing pH. In some of those kits both could be distinguished, in others not. I cannot reply to the argument that the funghus maximum may be at a pH about 4.5; I only presume that we have to distinguish between funghi and funghi as we have to distinguish between bacteria and bacteria.
If you breed e.g. P. parvulus, not the easiest species of all, then you see this interrelations very clearly. In the beginning, one of our best breeders, Günter Kopic, was successful with this species only with a pH around 3.0, sometimes less. When I tried it first, a pH of 4.5 was not low enough, and the test of the germ density showed still too many of them. The eggs did not develop. Then I lowered the pH to 3.5 and it worked. I know that there are breeders of parvulus with no problems at a pH of 6.0 or slightly more, but it was exceptional; obviously for a certain time the germ activity was not as developed as they were later on, and then the border was crossed.
I am not able to go into details further; I think w e are not able to do so. We could do it theoretically or by analogy with experiments with yeast from English orchards, but what does that prove? At least it’s difficult to tell, too difficult for me at least. But therefore I like this discussion very much; it’s scratching at the border of our knowledge. That’s fine.
