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[quote=”bartian” post=1579]
@Peter
C. bullosa is traded sometimes, is this the real deal or some other species resembling bullosa? I would like to give it a try then.[/quote]The first “C. bullosa” a saw two decades ago on the list of a Netherland’s trader (and bought) turned out as a quite normal C. affinis with very bullose leaves. Insofar your question is fully justified. But I hear that nowadays sometimes the real C. bullosa is sometimes in trade.
Nevertheless I do not recommend to buy it for that purpose of establishing an advanced aquarium for licorice gouramies. To my knowledge there is (nearly?) nobody at present capable of keeping it alive or really grow it for a longer period submersed. All experts grow it (and many other species of the soft south-east-Asian running waters) emersed.
Since our debate evades a bit into special questions on Cryptocoryne, I shall inform Günter Oberjatzas (Hanover) who is one of the leading experts on this and – what is best! – who is member of the Parosphromenus-Project! I shall ask him to write something for this discussion. (If it is conveniant for him to do that, of course …).
Peat certainly is best since it’s the way nature chooses herself in the homelands of our fish. But there are three problems:
1. It is always risky to buy peat in a shop for gardening. Often, fertilizers are mixed in but not openly declared. At any rate you must avoid this.
2. Peat isn’t peat. There are many different sorts of peat. Once you buy a peat that reduces the pH very efficiently; that should be the case. But then there is peat that has no value at all; it’s filtering function is not better than using an old doorscraper. You must look for the first mentioned, but often you receive the second only declared in the highest notes of appraisal. If you buy those small rounded pellets from the pet shop trade you are mostly on the safe side; mostly.
3. The most serious point is: Peat is a product from bogs and moors. And we rightly protest against the heavy use of it in gardening. There are substitutes for it for that purpose, but the commerce goes on. But it’s a problem, too, that we protest against the destruction of the peat bogs in south-east Asia but again use peat from our countries, participating in the destruction of our peat-bogs for establishing nice aquariums.
Now, one could say: But it’s so little a quantity! Gardening with peat is a big business, but using a small amount for a Paro-tank is negligible. Well, I leave it to you to valuate this argument. I am much in favour of those aquarists who for that reason look for other methods in our hobby, too. For instance using alder-cones, or oak-leaves, or oak-extracts or even acids (not vinegar, of course!). The results of these alternative methods are good.
Nevertheless I think that really acid peat is very good indeed. Maybe there are further ingredients that we don’t really know that add to the function we are here speaking about.
[quote=”Jordy” post=1578]Thank you for your detailed explanation.(…) Great to have see so much knowledge on this forum.
Here comes a new question, which paro species are available at this moment and are in need of breeding (more then others paros)? For my first paro set-up I´m not picky about most colorful species or what so ever, just want to help out and enjoying keeping and breeding them.[/quote]
Jordy, the newest information will be read in the next newsletter: In Germany, we have all 20 described species in private stock, even the long missed allani and gunawani. But some of these are not yet available from the breeders since they must enlarge the stock before. Others are available in very large stocks and not in need of addiditional breeders, e.g. linkei, filamentosus, nagyi-variants or quindecim. On the other hand: These are the best species to gain experience with. I always recommend them to Paro-beginners.
At last there are species that are really in need of being bred more than up to the present, e.g. sumatranus, opallios or alfredi. But there may be distribution-problems again or they are too sophisticated for beginners.
I shall send you privately the last census that was carried out in October 2012; it is slightly outdated but by far not fully. Second, I recommend you to write a mail to our distribution-address (see button “distribution”) and ask for addresses of breeders. Thirdly, if this is necessary, you could write to me personally and I try to help you personally.
[quote=”Jordy” post=1574]Peter I fully understand your point. It´s not that I need to using every plant I have on my list. Maybe I will try to test a few plants that maybe arn´t suited for this type of water “by the book”.
Like Stefanie said about using/finding plants from a certain area that I can use in the tanks,
my region is Southeast Asia. By trail and error, in time you will have a list of plants you can use in this kind of water that are from this region. On this list will be plants that might not even live in -5.5ph water conditions “by the book”. But after testing it, they don´t seem to thrive or die, they just stay alive and survive.If we can collect all the info of what plants are kept by who, and put all experience and the water conditions with it.We might end up with a nice plant-list with some personal tips, that people can use in the future.[/quote]
Jordy, of course you should do what you want to do. You should “test a few plants” to your liking, and maybe we arrive at some advanced list with recommendations. That would be fine.
We know a lot about the ideal conditions for plants as we know them for fish. Of course we could confine ourselves to the ideal conditions for our fish (in order to get them propagated), and for the plants we could say “after testing it, they don’t seem to thrive or die, they just stay alive and survive”.
I am for decades a member of the European Cryptocoryne Society, and we have a lot of knowledge nowadays; the Bastmeijer-website is full of it. But the crypts of the aquarium trade are the hardy ones from Sri Lanka and not the sophisticated from the blackwater streams. Presently, there is no best method of practicing an aquarium which is best organized for licorice gouramies and equally best for the softwater crypts of Malaysia and Indonesia; presently they only can be safely grown emersed. The reason is the stagnant, not flowing water of an aquarium. We have a fundamental structural problem here that is difficult to solve. Therefore most specialists for these fish use only very few plants, and most specialists for certain plants don’t have licorice gouramies in their tanks. Especially in Europe we have been accustomed to an aquarium as a sort of underwater garden, and that is biologically very well working for many fish and many plants: those that are sold by the trade. There is no approved method for some other which are longed for by some more specialized people nevertheless: Sphaerichthys or Parosphromenus on the fish side and softwater crypts on the plant side.
The structure of an aquarium tank is so different from the structure of the natural biotopes (with 90% “soil” and its nutrient flows from below and only 10% water constantly being renewed) as compared to an aquarium with at least 90% stagnant water (the movement of the filter is no flow; you must repair this by frequent water changes) and – at most – 10% soil without any nutrient springs in it) that you have to choose between a big disadvantage for the fish or the same for the plants.
In the Parosphromenus-project we try to develop some paths that may lead to a better sustainment for heavily endangered fish. You are looking for the pragmatic compromise as a planted aquarium for them is concerned; I understand that and that’s quite in order. My small tanks are full of plants, too, admittedly mainly Ceratopteris, Salvinia, mosses, Java fern, only a few others. Of course, C. walkeri or C. undulata will stand quite a few deviations from their best milieu. But I wish you success to find a way of growing (not only keeping them a bit alive) of f.i. C. griffithii, C. bullosa, C. nurii or others. Some friends try, but presently we have no good solution. Be the one who makes the step further!
Jordy, your plant list must be commented upon in many respects. I confine myself to
“crypto soorten”: Most commonly used aquarium crytos are Sri Lanka species. They live in water totally different than that for Paros. It is a science of its own to develop a method of keeping those fish together with cryptos of the black waters. It is nearly impossible, a matter of different structure. Better, you leave cryptos out.
As the other plants with a great foliage are concerned you must mind that they all live form nutrients dissolved in the water. But your problem is to keep your nearly nutrient-free water blackwater as stable as possible. Using nutrients for plants is out. I don’t see a solution. Of course you can have a green tank with Paros (mine are green too), but mainly with Ceratopteris (very good) and other swimming plants and an occasional rank of Ludwigia or Hygrophila. But the lower your pH the number of suitable plant species is reduced to few. And for some Paros you need pH of 4, even of 3.5. The main aim is to reduce germs which attack the eggs and the larvae. Therefore you need the low pH. Plants are possible only with compromises, pH 6 – 6.5 for example. But the normal planted aquarium is an underwater-garden run with much carbon dioxide, and the Paro-habitats are not of that kind. Paros live within the riparian grasses that hang into the flowing water; that’s different.
Nevertheless, your tanks could be full of green and look wonderful, as do mine, but forget the normal scheme of gravel and underwater gardening. Amano is nothing for Paro-lovers (to name an extreme example) Even a Holland-aquarium (as we call them in Germany: heavily and nicely planted tanks with many plant species) are not suitable and practicable. It’s for show not for use. At least not for keeping and breeding Paros.
I wish you luck with your experiments.Jordy, nice to meet you here, so finally it has worked.
Ypur questions:
1. tank size: Paros need not much space for their behaviour. Your tank is fine but think how you would raise the young. Some pairs tolerate the young, but you will really be unable to feed them properly; it’s too big. But you can try.
2. Filtration is not really necessary. Peat is best.
3. Substrate is not really necessary because you can’t use many plants in such water (no calcium, pH below 6.5, best between 5 and 6). At any rate the substrate must only cover the glass bottom. Leaves are important (oak, beech). Collect them dry from the wood and soak them in hot water.
4. The material of the cave is unimportant (plastic, clay, wood). But the cave should be small (diameter not more than 3 cm, perhaps less) and the surface level should make sure that no nest or eggs slide out.To lower pH by vinegar is really nonsense and contraproductive. You can use pure acids (as phosphoric acid or sulphuric acid in addition to humic substances from peat or leafs) but not vinegar! Vinegar is food containing many different aromatic ingredients and produced from many fruits or herbs or other things (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar ). You do not want to aromatize your water but to lower the pH.
Indeed, you could use some sorts of acids, and there are industrial products for this (e.g. based on oak). But vinegar, really, that is to mistake the aquarium for the food table!“Sintang” or “Sentang” is a location on Sumatra in the Jambi-district and is used as a trade-name for a hitherto undecribed variant of a bintan-type licorice gouramy. Sometimes the trade speaks of “P. sintangensis” which should sound like a scientific name but it is nonsense. Look at our “other forms” pages, see the “spieces”-button.
Sentang is the most traded licorice gouramy of the last years. If you find Parosphromenus in the trade, whatever name, most are spec. Sentang. This means that this is a most productive and easy to exploit location. And many exporters (not to speak of their catchers, of course) don’t bother about names; it’s mostly either “deissneri” or “Sentang”.
But the problem is that there are several rather similar forms living in country Jambi quite near of the Sentang-area, and we guess they have been mingled already in the trade. Since we do not know anything about the genetic similarities or differences of these forms that could be either without any importance or on the contrary loaden with heavy consequences. Not always are similar-looking fish (or birds, lizards, plants etc.) identical; often the development of genetic differences has begun already. The only thing we can do is to keep Parosphromenus-fish that we have reasons to stem from different locations strictly apart!
Most aquarists who bought their licorice gouramies from the trade from 2009 onwards have spec. Sentang swimming in their tanks.
This latter shown fish is most likely a young ornaticauda-male in plain colours caused by that light conditions without any structure or cave. The white edges in the anal and dorsal and the type of marking in the caudal make this very probable. But this means that the names that are offered by this dealer are very accidentally and wrongly used (which is quite normal with Parosphromenus in trade). The females don’t have these markings. In display the fish has a completely different colouring that looks rather striking. There is a unique heads-up display dance.
Which was the name you were given? But your so-called “spec. Ampah” should look differently. And they have a completely different body-structure, I hope?
Ryan, couldn’t you indicate where you got these fish from? Obviously they offer different species (or forms). I guess the fish are wildcaught and have been imported. Do you know the import company? How many Paros are there in the trader’s tanks? And don’t you see any of those problems you have described in your postings in the trader’s tank already? What is the conditions they have been kept in? I think some informations could be interesting to other readers, even to us in Europe.
We had this strange behaviour with quite a few of the newly imported spec. Ampah too. Most certainly it is a special weakness of this population, maybe a special reaction to stress. There are populations that react much more intensely to stress than others.
We were unable to cure it by medicine, and some fish did not recover at all. Some others did, however, given best conditions (changing food, water with pH about 5, at least not more than 6, often partly changed, quietness, no disturbance, slightly elevated temperature). So I should try the same. I think you can do nothing else. It is for sure that some of our fish recovered from the same symptoms you have described, but – as I said – not all.Ryan, first, driftwood from the trade is of no use for a blackwater aquarium. It is very well probable that this wood had a very negative effect in the oxygen-content. But I have never heared before that the need for frequent air-catching had a negative effect on the swim-bladder of the fish.
But second, how are the water values? I think you have measured them from the beginning. How did they develop?
Third, has a temperature chock happened?
Fourth, how couldn’t you say whether your food has been eaten? One sees the fish eating or one does not see them eating. And what sort of food did you feed?
The strange behaviour that you describe points to a serious illness of your fish. Lack of oxygen could be the right track but is not enough to clear this case up. Driftwood from the trade could consume high percentages of the free oxgen, and then even Paros go to the surface an catch for air. Normally they don’t do this with the exception of some bubble nest building.
I suspect a multiple cause. Mostly a severe coldness was part of it when the fish swim the way you decsribe it. And mostly – I am afraid – there is no healing whatsoever.
Write something more about the water you use and the overall conditions. And were the fish completely healthy when you got them or was there some strange behaviour right from the beginning?Sverting, I wish you all success. If you are successful, then something very valuable will result: New experience for some advanced methods.
This time I agree totally. It’s a very interesting project for advanced aquarists, not for beginners. An advanced breeder of licorice gouramies could find a sophisticated and rewarding mission to get us nearer to natural conditions. But we need the help of the trade or – because I am sceptic about that – some friends who on their next expedition do not only catch Paros but shrimps, too.
What I wrote on Neocaridina parvidentata is partly based on my own experience. Mainly on that of Benjamin Wilden (Germany). This shrimp is definitely not the ideal solution of the problem but it has proved to come nearer to it than others more often used in the hobby. With a Microsiemens/cm of often 10 to 30 (which equals a hardness of below 0.5, with carbon hardness 0.0) all the normal aquarium shrimps cannot live.
Besides, the informations that are given by the shrimp-lovers are ambivalent and partly wrong. They concentrate fully on their shrimps (as we do on our Paros) and are not interested in their capacity to tolerate extreme water conditions but to describe the ideal conditions for them. So the conclusion is as I said before: We do not have the right shrimps up to now. If some tolerate our values it’s a matter of compromise.
