Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
First, that you will come to our Hamburg II is very good news, indeed.
Second, I am very happy about David’s greetings, and his luck in taking those P. quindecim over from you.
But third, that would be the best of all: managing to persuade the Browns and David to accompagny you to Hamburg! Indeed, all people meeting there would be very happy to see them.
What do you think: Should/could we do something to realize that aim?Yes, Helene is right, I am very happy about that encounter. I have met the couple for several times, and always Allan had many fish (Parosphromenus of course, different species) readily packed in his luggage.Some species I got for the first time from him, e.g. deissneri or spec. Kota Tinggi, excellent fish, in best health condition, and rather easy to breed for a non-beginner. But nevertheless Allan stayed to remain nearly the only source for them, until … he decided to stop aquaristics and give everything away from one day to the next. Before we had often contact via eMail, after that the couple fell in silence.
Therefore I am very happy to read that you met both of them.
I hope we meet in Hamburg again?Wentian Shi will leave Bangka island today after a week of very important and laborious work. At first his friend Ji assisted him in searching the true deissneri, that was reported extinct last year already; last week he was accompagnied by Japanese Hiroyuki Kishi, head of the Team Borneo and one oft the best experts on Bangka biotopes.
When I met Wentian some months ago I asked him to go again there and try to search still more intensely; so he did and he did it very successful. Although he found all (literally: ALL) known locations for P. deissneri completely and irreparably destroyed into dead, barren agricultural land, partly planted with oil palm trees already, he investigated the island more intensely than others had done so beforehand. And so he and his friends found small regions with blackwater swamps and … deissneri. Most probably of a different location type than that lost for ever, but clearly this species.
They found some more Paros, too, including so-called bintan and probably a hitherto unknown new form; whether a new species or merely a new variant of the known: nobody knows at present.
They intend to visit the neighbouring and smaller island of Belitung during the next days, from which we know P. spec. Belitung, a roundtail bintan-like type, but it was never imported before. Let us see, what else will be revealed to our eyes.
So far already, it is a great achievement. I was informed in daily mails by Wentian, mostly accompagnied by photos of the fish caught and the landscape. We can now hope to save P. deissneri at least in our tanks. But we must be far more careful to organize this than we were some years ago when our last stock of deissneri dwindled away despite we tried to pay attention on that danger.
Great work again, Rafael.
This must be one issue of our discussions in Hamburg 2017. Please, prepare a presentation (max. half an hour) of these diagrams.
Possible topics of discussion:
– What are the highlights and – maybe – shortcomings in this investigation?
– What does it mean for the future of the census-method?
– Do we need similar parallel investigations into other aspects of our work?
Peter FinkeI rule out pahuensis. This species is structurally different: it has a distinctly longer dorsal fin, than linkei. Right, the colour is without significance, since the fish are typically frightended in the trader’s situation. But structure is significant.
Peter FinkeDear Lawrence, some years ago I had fantastically strong true allani that were caught by Horst Linke and Michael Lo. Still formerly, there were fish here in Europe caught by Allan and Barbara Brown. But both are lost in the meantime.
I thought that the fish of Hallmann and Bussler be Lundu or Sungai Stunggang, but reading your story this will be wrong.
And yes: We plan the second meeting in Hamburg 22-24. September. It would be great if you could participate! Really! A Chinese named Wentian Shi will do so equally, who will visit Bangka probably twice this year (after having done so last year) in search of the last true deissneri. All “classical” locations of the species are destroyed.
Please come to Hamburg! Write to me personally if you need more information (peter.finke(at)t-online.de)
PeterDear Lawrence, some years ago I had fantastically strong true allani that were caught by Horst Linke and Michael Lo. Still formerly, there were fish here in Europe caught by Allan and Barbara Brown. But both are lost in the meantime.
I thought that the fish of Hallmann and Bussler be Lundu or Sungai Stunggang, but reading your story this will be wrong.
And yes: We plan the second meeting in Hamburg 22-24. September. It would be great if you could participate! Really! A Chinese named Wentian Shi will do so equally, who will visit Bangka probably twice this year (after having done so last year) in search of the last true deissneri. All “classical” locations of the species are destroyed.
Please come to Hamburg! Write to me personally if you need more information (peter.finke(at)t-online.de)
PeterDear Lawrence, congratulations. Where did you receive the true allani from? Did you catch them yourselves at the original locations? Or did you receive them via a reliable source?
There are “so-called allani” around, but they are mostly spec. Lundu or Sunggai Stunggang, similar but not identical. It is of major importance that we succeed in propagating true allani, since the destruction of the original locations is well under way, as I learn.
Best, Peter
I have limited time only for replying because of a travel immediately starting.
1. The carotene-thing is highly plausible but not fully clear yet. Similar colour changes occur in the original locations, too (as we know from Peter Beyers and possibly your own observations). They might equally be explained by change of food. But we have no empirical proof of such food-changes in the original environment, haven’t we? Nevertheless, it’s highly probable.
2. The most remarkable consequence is: Colour markings, at least the changing blue-red zones of fish in the bintan-harveyi-group, must be excluded as criteria for species determination. For non-genetic identifications only structural properties remain safe (or not? see no 3.). In my view, the consequence is that some species-descriptions by Kottelat and Ng become obsolete. But y
3. As long as there is no real proof to be wrong (and in my view we do not have such a proof) clear structural features remain important for species distinctions at least at a sub- or semispecies level, length of the ventral fins for instance. Therefore I am not convinced that the “Mimbon98” was an alfredi. In my memory we had no proof of that determination besides structure and colour and behaviour. If you write “The cf. alfredi „Mimbon 98″ is i. m. o. P. alfredi too, but a little different in colouring and the larger lenght of fins and especially ventral-filaments” then the “in my opinion” is decisive. There is no persuading argument for it. We had a fish from the trade without any indication of a reliable location, hadn’t we?
4. Following you, Martin, the only safe criterion for species determination remaining (at least for the round-tailed Paros of the bintan-harveyi-type) is a valid location. But even this is doubtful because of the great genetic similarities we know so far already. In this situation, I think it is a bit courageous to say that the “Mimbon98” is, “in your opinion”, an alfredi! (Or: it’s frankly admitting that one does not know for sure).A remarkable and helpful comparison, but a disturbing and question-rising, too! First,many thanks, Martin!
Then: The influence by different food is highly probable, since it is well-proved in all of these cases. But could you exclude other accompagnying factors that may trigger those colour differences additionally? If not, it is surely remarkable in its own that food is suffcient for making that difference.
But other questions arise concerning structural features. The caudal of the first (red) fish seems to be slightly more elongated; in its son (or grandson) in picture two it is much less developed. Or is this an illusion that is caused by different perspectives of the photos? (I think a bit on the case of the difference between tweediei from Western Malaysia and the certainly closely related phoenicurus from Sumatra. It was stunning that the elongated shape of the wild caught spec. Langgam was nearly lost in the generations bred at that time mainly by Martin Fischer. At the same time the limited red zones of the father fish in later generations extended over large areas of the unpaired fins of the sons and grandsons. But that’s colour; your series shows how uncertain it is to rely for species determinazation on that!).
Certainly not caused by food (or would you say even that? I don’t think so) is the remarkable difference in the length of the ventrals with respect to the Mimbon-fish (the last picture). I have not seen such a big difference within one and the same Paro-species (with the exclusion of so-called “blue line”; that is no scientifically controlled species however; it’s a trade name only used for surely different fish from Sumatra. I had some with very long ventrals indeed and at another time some with very short. Nobody was able to control their identities. Probably that were different fish bearing the same trade-name.) Here, you place the Mimbon98 within the range of alfredi (as I know well; you gave me one of the last young males). Are there other examples for a Parosphromenus-species with such a variability of ventral-length? If any one could say, it’s you. I never have encountered that (well: perhaps with some “bintan”, but that’s the same thing as the blue-line problem: mostly trade fish without approved identity).
To my opinion, I should place the first three and the Mimbon not wthin the alfredi range. When I remember correctly, Kottelat and Ng in their description did not mention such a big difference in verntral length as pypical for alfredi. But as I said: Especially wth this species you are most experienced. Here, I believe what you believe.A remarkable and helpful comparison, but a disturbing and question-rising, too! First,many thanks, Martin!
Then: The influence by different food is highly probable, since it is well-proved in all of these cases. But could you exclude other accompagnying factors that may trigger those colour differences additionally? If not, it is surely remarkable in its own that food is suffcient for making that difference.
But other questions arise concerning structural features. The caudal of the first (red) fish seems to be slightly more elongated; in its son (or grandson) in picture two it is much less developed. Or is this an illusion that is caused by different perspectives of the photos? (I think a bit on the case of the difference between tweediei from Western Malaysia and the certainly closely related phoenicurus from Sumatra. It was stunning that the elongated shape of the wild caught spec. Langgam was nearly lost in the generations bred at that time mainly by Martin Fischer. At the same time the limited red zones of the father fish in later generations extended over large areas of the unpaired fins of the sons and grandsons. But that’s colour; your series shows how uncertain it is to rely for species determinazation on that!).
Certainly not caused by food (or would you say even that? I don’t think so) is the remarkable difference in the length of the ventrals with respect to the Mimbon-fish (the last picture). I have not seen such a big difference within one and the same Paro-species (with the exclusion of so-called “blue line”; that is no scientifically controlled species however; it’s a trade name only used for surely different fish from Sumatra. I had some with very long ventrals indeed and at another time some with very short. Nobody was able to control their identities. Probably that were different fish bearing the same trade-name.) Here, you place the Mimbon98 within the range of alfredi (as I know well; you gave me one of the last young males). Are there other examples for a Parosphromenus-species with such a variability of ventral-length? If any one could say, it’s you. I never have encountered that (well: perhaps with some “bintan”, but that’s the same thing as the blue-line problem: mostly trade fish without approved identity).
To my opinion, I should place the first three and the Mimbon not wthin the alfredi range. When I remember correctly, Kottelat and Ng in their description did not mention such a big difference in verntral length as pypical for alfredi. But as I said: Especially wth this species you are most experienced. Here, I believe what you believe.A remarkable and helpful comparison, but a disturbing and question-rising, too! First,many thanks, Martin!
Then: The influence by different food is highly probable, since it is well-proved in all of these cases. But could you exclude other accompagnying factors that may trigger those colour differences additionally? If not, it is surely remarkable in its own that food is suffcient for making that difference.
But other questions arise concerning structural features. The caudal of the first (red) fish seems to be slightly more elongated; in its son (or grandson) in picture two it is much less developed. Or is this an illusion that is caused by different perspectives of the photos? (I think a bit on the case of the difference between tweediei from Western Malaysia and the certainly closely related phoenicurus from Sumatra. It was stunning that the elongated shape of the wild caught spec. Langgam was nearly lost in the generations bred at that time mainly by Martin Fischer. At the same time the limited red zones of the father fish in later generations extended over large areas of the unpaired fins of the sons and grandsons. But that’s colour; your series shows how uncertain it is to rely for species determinazation on that!).
Certainly not caused by food (or would you say even that? I don’t think so) is the remarkable difference in the length of the ventrals with respect to the Mimbon-fish (the last picture). I have not seen such a big difference within one and the same Paro-species (with the exclusion of so-called “blue line”; that is no scientifically controlled species however; it’s a trade name only used for surely different fish from Sumatra. I had some with very long ventrals indeed and at another time some with very short. Nobody was able to control their identities. Probably that were different fish bearing the same trade-name.) Here, you place the Mimbon98 within the range of alfredi (as I know well; you gave me one of the last young males). Are there other examples for a Parosphromenus-species with such a variability of ventral-length? If any one could say, it’s you. I never have encountered that (well: perhaps with some “bintan”, but that’s the same thing as the blue-line problem: mostly trade fish without approved identity).
To my opinion, I should place the first three and the Mimbon not wthin the alfredi range. When I remember correctly, Kottelat and Ng in their description did not mention such a big difference in verntral length as pypical for alfredi. But as I said: Especially wth this species you are most experienced. Here, I believe what you believe.1. Remember: with Paros, you are installing a different type of aquarium than the normal one. You cannot rely on plants that stand pH of 5 or below.
2. Be generally careful with plants. If they strive they change the water conditions. This is compltetely different in the normal aquarium type.
3. The RO-water is stable but it is free of many ingredients besides H and O. You could use it, but take rain water as alternative.
4. A 38-gallon tank is much too big for Paros. A pair of them needs in nature not more space than what equals a 5 to 10 gallon tank.
5. Generally speaking, you should be aware of the special needs of your fish. And that means of the special task of establishing a blackwater aqaurium. It is different in some important respects.Martin, I know only one mostly effective way of handling Oodinium, and that is a treatment with fresh (yellow!) 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol; if the powder has become brown already, you can forget it and throw it away. The substance was formerly in Spirohexol (JBL) and Hexa-Ex (Tetra), but both companies seem to have changed the composition of their products; the new ones do not seem effective any more. The pure substance is hard to get hold of since (at least in Germany) only veterinarians are allowed to buy and use it. So we are largely left with conservative treatments. Methylenblau und Malachitgrün are not very effective.
I think, the best conservative treatment is that you have used (rise of temperature)and its optimization suggested by Rafael. But you could try to make it still more effective by adding normal table-salt (=Natriumchlorid), about a table-spoon for 10 liters. Paros do not like Calcium in their waters, but they stand quite a lot of Natriumchlorid. The parasites seem to leave the fish-body in the course of several hours or days. Then you should place the fishes in fresh water with the right water values. The method is not sure, but generally safe.
