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As the movies of Paul are regarded you can say nothing. They are too bad. You even cannot tell about the structure of the caudal fin which seems to be rounded but maybe a bit elongated, too. Real deissneri have nearly rhombishly formed cauadal with a clear black filament. And you cannot tell about the structure of the turquoise bands in the unpaired fins by that movies.
In order to identify licorice gouramis with turquoise bands in these fins by photos (that is to say bintan or realtives of bintan or deissneri) you need to have very big, very clear photos. And even then it is not possible in any case.
The only reason why I write this here in this clear words and logitude is a v e r y n e w information: last week with 99% certainty the real deissneri have been found in an import by a big German wholesaler, for the firt time. This is quite unusual. The fish have been called deissneri by the Asian exporter (from Singapore) but this is the usual naming, and so the German importer thought “O well, deissneri are never deissneri, so I shall call them “deissneri” or bintan.” But then somebody who knows (Martin Hallmann) visited the import station and identified the fish as the real deissneri! Immediately after Martin told me and since then we try to organize a German network of breeders in order to secure these fish and to get them bred. Therefore we have now, since the beginning of this current week, the possibility of real deissneri appearing in pet shops everywhere in Europe since the big wholesaler distributes his fish nearly to every country in Europe.
To prevent disorder and chaos but to use that chance of getting that much sought after species, you should obey some simple rules:
1. Have a very close look to fish in the aquarium trade called deissneri or bintan.
2. Ask for the date when they have been arrived. If before November 15th then they are probably not deissneri.
3. If the source of the fish is Glaser/Rodgau (Germany) or the exporter is a Singapore company then you could be lucky.
4. The structure of the body should be slightly elongated. The fish are rather big compared with other species.
5. The colours of the males have not been very clear last week. But they should be in the meantime in a darker surrounding. Then the typical dotted appearance of the bands in the unpaired fins, especially composed of little separated streaks in the caudal, should be to be seen.
6. The caudal especially in the males is not rounded but slightly rhombish and bears are clear short black filament.A word to the “other forms”:
– There are more than the 18 species presently described scientifically. Note, that Kottelat and Ng in their recent publication from 2005 (!) needed years to describe species that have been known many years before as distinct from others. The whole procedure often needs much time.
– We have prepared a long list of such other forms that have become known since the seventies of last century. Unfortunately we have not been able to write all necessary texts explaining that forms up to now. But only a few of them are actually important. We shall put in short descriptions of these forms only at first, and that will happen in the next weeks.
– It is necessary to have such forms in mind since most of the traded Paros are caught on Sumatra and belong to those other forms. Mind that some Paro experts often have fish they caught themselves or close friends from well-known places (or offspring of them bred by friends), that means: with a clear location and naming. But most others have only fish from the trade. And these fish are often factually other forms, although they are called (by the trade-people) a species name the one way or the other in order to get them sold. Most of those forms are very similar to each other. But you need to keep them separate as long as you don’t know exactly.
– One of the most traded “other form” is spec. Sentang (or sometimes wrongly called “sintangensis”). Another is “blue line” (this trade-name tells us: “I do not kwnow what it is but the fish has blue markings”. This is no clarification whatsoever). Most of the traded “deissneri” belong to those other forms. It is quite a new experience that the true deissneri might be among them.
– Most of that “other forms” (but not all) are probably bintan or close relatives to bintan. But as long as we don’t know exactly we have to keep them separate in any case and, if ever possible, use their preliminary “other-forms-name”!I hesitate to agree to the wish of a special category “water parameters”. There are the categories “breeding” and “methods” for this. Enlarging the category-list (what about food? tank size? diseases?) means proceeding slowly to the usual great complexity of many forums. Our forum still is quite compact and clearly arranged; we should retain that.
Besides: you don’t need different water parameters for the different licorice gouramis. You need only two simple rules: 1. (Nearly) no calcium and very low conductivity (between 10 and 100), 2. As few germs as possible = a pH clearly below 7.0. The lower the pH, the fewer germs. Everything between 3.00 and 6.5 is possible.[quote=”helene” post=1285]:)(…)But that the paro is going for the eggs is obvious and maybe living in sparse environment makes precisely egg-steeling a very good supply of food ?(…)[/quote]
Very good remark, Helene! This indeed is the problem for blackwater fish: a rather sparse, oligotrophic, nearly sterile environment. Normal food not abundant, so that the fish must detect something unusual a concentrated nutritive substance: the eggs of shrimps.
This is a very remarkable video shot by Thomas Beu (Frankfurt/Germany). Not only that it shows a rather aggressive male filamentosus somehow fighting a shrimp as big as himself, but the real stage effect is not to be seen directly. Thomas Beu reported that it happened after the camera was put away:
The fish was not only trying to dislodge the shrimp from his own territory (as it seems at the first sight) but it really was trying to steal the eggs the shrimp was carrying beneath its body! After the camera was removed Thomas witnessed this to happen indeed! He hopes it will happen again and he will be able to catch it with the camera.
This is quite remarkable for two reasons: firstly, a Paro male can behave as aggressively as this and is not intimidated by such a fiercely looking invertebrate being with many legs. Secondly, we learn what is probably one of the main food of Paro’s in the wild: eggs (and young?) of shrimps. We always thought that shrimps may play an important role in the natural food of our fish, although most of the species of shrimps that are sold by the aquarium trade are not very well accustomed very soft, very acid blackwaters. But there must be other species living under these conditions that are not sold by the aquarium trade because there is no market for them. This little video seems to indicate that this might really be the case. But I admit that I did not know how big a desire of such food is to be found with the licorice gouramis!
Seeing this we realized that there is no category “behaviour” in our forum. Helene Schoubye acted at once: now we have it!
It is very praiseworthy that Paul is attentive to this question and examines this case. For we have nearly lost real deissneri. The only living pair spawns regularly but the larvae don’t develop. It’s a pity.
Helene is fully right, however; it is not possible to determine this fish clearly by this video. But it is highly improbable that it is a real deissneri. Why?
1. The real male deissneri is more longish in its bodily appearance than this fish;
2. The turquoise bands in his unpaired fins are strikingly special among all other members of this genus and they are very conspicuous in their dotted composition. They must be recognizable even with fins partly not spread because they lie in the middle of the fins’ width.
3. The tail is elongated and bears a black filament.
4. The ventrals have rather long filaments.
None of these very special markers are to be seen with the fish in the video. In my opinion it is an ordinary spec. Sentang.
The only reason why one could have second thoughts on this matter is that the fish was bought at an AAGB meeting. Allan Brown bred real deissneri over many years and distributed all of them in Britain and Germany some years ago. There is a slight chance that there might be offspring of these fish still to be found. But it is unlikely, however. The name “deissneri” says nothing. All people who don’t know exactly what they talk about, abd especially the fish trade , call nearly all licorice gouramis like this.
Nevertheless it was fully right that Paul calls attention to thus case. Why? See above.And again I plea for open eyes in other European countries. It’s not often the case that such a rarity appears in trade in one country only. The wholesalers deliver their fish mostly in several countries.
But lucky Sweden! Volker, could you tell us which company it is that distributes this fish? The we could perhaps guess which other European countries could benefit from that import.
A forum is a means for exchanging information and opinion. In my case it was an opinion. I did not intend to offend anybody. But if I did that with Sissimore without intention, I beg him pardon. Maybe, I read the word of “keeping fish” too literally in his case. I should be happy seeing him write here again.
But we should follow the principle of expressing our opinion clearly. I have a critical opinion in respect to aquaristics: a wonderful hobby, an excellent opportunity to watch and learn, but at the same time a great business with ambivalent aspects, too. That refers mainly to the role of the hobby industry, but partly to common mentalities, too. If you investigate empirically into the motives and practices of the aquarists (and I did some years ago at the university), the overwhelming majority of them are buyers and consumers of products without much knowledge about the backgrounds. They keep fish for fun.
I am not against that, but I am somewhat relieved that – with some exceptions – heavily threatened fish are not to be purchased in the pet shops. Here, in our Parosphromenus-project, we follow much more special aims and all who log-in here are certainly aware of the problems. At least I am fully aware of that, but I am grateful that we can express very different thoughts on our subject matters and discuss it. The medium is not very conveniant for differentiated argumentaion. All must be expressed rather shortly, with a few words only. This generates misunderstandings, but it opens the way for discussion. And that’s good, isn’t it?
I am somewhat annoyed by this discussions how to “keep” the Paros. There are hundreds if not more than a thousand very different and beautiful ornamental fish, many of them readily available in the pet trade, that are not threatened at all. Many of them are constantly bred by private or commercial breeders, others are caught annually in great numbers in the wild without harming the stocks at all.
I think it completely wrong to use organisms, plants or anmals, which are threatened to extinction in all species mainly by the logging of the rainforests for ornamental purposes in community tanks only. Licorice gouramis are. That the offspring of some of them is caught each year for commercial purposes is acceptable as long as it harvestes a number only which does not add to the threat of the populations. So we can try to breed them, enlarge the stock in our aquaria and try to become independent from the consumer mentality of the hobby. Therefore, heavily threatened organisms are nothing suited for tanks the only purpose of which is simply “keeping” them, for this means to consume them. I am not against the usual consumer mentality of 95% of the normal aquarists as long as it is to be satisfied from the huge stock of non-threatened fish. But I plea that all friends of the licorice gouramis should first sincerely try to breed and enlarge their stock in tanks suited for that purpose. If they know how to do that and have enough young, they may “keep” some of them in large tanks or even community tanks. This may be the case with the friend who wrote the last posting (although this community with corys, ottos and ruby tetras is certainly not a fully adequate environment for fish from Asian blackwater habitats …).
At any rate I hope so.
on Allan: It is very good to learn that Allan sometimes is present on meetings and sees that there are people who might continue his work. This was not the case when he stopped fishkeeping. There was a great loss with his very rare species (the true deissneri! spec.Sungai Stunggang! allani! spec. Kota Tinggi! etc.) that must be given away to people who were not able to keep them alive, not to say to breed them. I now slowly get the impression that the dark period after may end …
on the yeast method: It’s new to me, too. I learned it from Martin Hallmann. I only tried it once and it was successful. Nvertheless I am cautious because I don’t want to infer yeast into my Paro-tanks …
on the visibility of young fry: After free swimming young Paro-fry are mostly not visible at all, but about one to three weeks later one sees more and more. Of course, some parents are aggressive against their young, but not all. One has to try it out. The youngest often hide in leaves on the ground, later on in swimming plants on the surface.
on breeding methods generally: Sometimes good experts say bad words about the extensive-breeding-method. Really, it will mostly produce only a few fry – sometimes more, sometimes less – keeping the stock at a good level. They argue that we should produce more fish by the intensive methods, and real experts would do so. That might be true, looking at the general situation with Paros. But I always defend the extensive breeders (often beginners): Inetsive breeding is much more difficult and need more equipment, you block the power of the beginners by talking like this. I see it with myself, too: I seldom do an intensive brood. Only with the extensive methods I can keep my many species, and I am happy if they propagate from time to time.
on the name: It’s filamentosus (not -um, at least in the original description).
I think that Allan likes to see people continuing his work with Paros in Britain. For he did it for many years with great success and it ended abruptly. It’s really a pity for the British Paro scene (and the continental, too)!
Surely, the filter sponge will produce quite a lot of edible organisms for the young fish.
As the California brine shrimp eggs are concerned, it’s the same with me. First the other can must be emptied fully, then I shall continue with them. In onr or two weeks you young Paros will be able to feed on them.
And even your problem with the vinegar eels reminds me of my own. Only lately I learned two methods which might be conveniant.
I know the first from Paramecium; it does work with vinegar eels, too. Fill the eel-loaden vinegar in a bottle with long narrow bottleneck (or breed them there already)so that the narrow bottleneck remains partly free. Then put a pad of cotton-wool in it with contact to the vinegar. And then fill the rest of the bottleneck gently with water. Two hours later you can harvest the eels by a pipette and feed them to the fish.
The second method is similar to the harvesting of micro: use a small amount of yeast in a bottleneck to attract the eels. After a while they creep out of the vinegar on the blank insides of the neck. You can harvest them with a fine brush.
Helene is right, you are priviliged by having Allan around for getting first-hand advice.
The best food for very small licorice gouramis are rotifiers, caught from the wild. But one could breed them easily, too. You only must get a starting population from a breeder-friend.
But you could work with Paramecium, too. Especially with filamentosus or nagyi or quindecim this is possible. If you manage to get best California brine shrimp cysts, the newly hatched animals are so small that they could be eaten from the very beginning by the young Paros. At any rate the young fish manage to eat normal freshly hatched brine shrimps mostly form the second weeks (not older ones, but you don’t have that problem!).
Many friends experience what Helene reports that suddenly there are some older young appearing in their parent’s tank, if there is enough cover on the ground (peat or leaves) and later on the surface (and one is lucky to have peaceful adults, which is often the case but not always).
A good food for very tiny fry is vinegar eels, too (not micro: they are bigger and sink down very fastly, whereas vinegar eels are more tiny and live long in the free water). But you know that, of course. I write it down for others who read this.
Stefanie, normally you don’t need a cover with Paros. In nature, they are fish living in greater depths than other anabantoids in flowing waters. Normally, you won’t therefore see them catching air; they never do this although their labyrinth is fully developed. You even could seclude the surface by a cover directly on the water surface, and the fish will live permanently in best health. You could never do this with any other anabantoid fish. They would drown within a few minutes.
And normally Paros don’t jump at all. This is quite different than with – say – Malpulutta kretseri; they are notourious jumpers, and other common anabantoids could be too. Paros are not, but: if they have no perfect conditions – water much too hard, pH much too high, many bacteria and germs in it – they come to the surface, catch air and – even may jump. Take as a rule: If fish jump that in nature don’t do that, it is because they feel somewhat uncomfortable. Something is wrong with the milieu you offered them If Paros find the right milieu, they don’t jump.
So I nevertheless recommend beginners to use a cover as Helene says: if you fill the tank nearly until its upper end. For you normally cannot provide best water conditions permanently. The structure of an aquarium is so different to a flowing rainforest stream that the germs will multiply although you try to prevent it. The plasticity of the fish’s organism will stand it nevertheless, and they will spawn and the young will grow, if things don’t get so bad than in the normal community tanks with fish fed by artificial dried food. Happily, we feed live food and Paros feed a little only. So things can’t get such bad. But it’s more difficult to keep their conditions in order than with “normal” ornamental fish.
I fill all my small 10-liter-tanks with water until a few millimeters from the upper end of the tank. They are all covered by a light plastic glass which is two millimeters thin, only. It’s very light indeed and unbreakable. You could buy it at “Obi” or another special market for home-workers. And it could be sewed or broken after having cut with a sharp knife. And you can bore or drill holes in it. It’s directly lying on the tank only two or three millimeters above the water surface. I have bored or drilled a ten millimeter hole in each of them very near to the front end so that I can feed the fish with a pipette through it without taking it away.
Paros are no fish for only keeping them for joy only; they don’t swin much around and in order to see their behaviour they must be bred.Mike, your video does not show a pair of spec. Sentang spawning but it’ a video of an attempted spawning. Mostly the first embraces in a cave happen for hours without eggs appearing, especially in young pairs, but with older ones, too. This is quite normal and is called apparent pairings or sham pairings (German “Scheinpaarungen”). Every sequence of pairíngs is introduced by such sham pairing attempts, but after some time the eggs appear and the male will fertilize them. Therefore, your video is a video of a sequence of normal sham spawnings.
However, in your case subsequently there might have been no real spawnings at all. There could be two causes: firstly, the pair has no really quiet place, it’s too much disturbance around them (take the shrimps!). Secondly, there is a second male around. This is quite a bad thing for normal spawing behaviour because that is disturbed or prevented by necessary antagonistic behaviour of the two males. Therefore I think you will not be successful with this tank resp. its living community. In tanks that are really crowded by plants it might be different, but the best method is to isolate the pair in a small spawning tank without any disturbance. In nature there is disturbance, too, but with much more space, and that minimizes the disturbance.
Helene is right: her pictures show two different forms (not species) of nagyi.
The first picture shows nagyi from around the location of Cherating. It is clearly recognizable by the fact that the coloured band in the caudal of the male is blue, or to say it in other words: the same colour as the coloured bands in dorsal and anal.
The second and the third pictures show a nagyi from around the location of Kuantan (which is more widely distributed), and it is clearly recognizable by the fact that the colour of the band in the caudal is white (whereas the bands in dorsal and anal are blue).The Kuantan-form is the “classical” one, and is to be recognized in some other features, too. For instance: the caudal appears to be very short indeed because of the rather long overstanding spines. This is less the case in Cherating. But this feature is not clearly to be seen in these photos.
The first who caught this species was Peter Nagy de Felsö Gör from Salzburg, and Dietrich Schaller (Munich) described the species some years later using his name. It was the Kuantan-form. Only some years later Martin Hallmann (Weinheim) detected the Cherating-form and its aberrant features.
We don’t know whether these differences that are always clearly to be seen in live fish indicate subspecies or some less important difference only. In any case: One should not mingle those forms! Keep them separate!
Ted, you are really welcome here! We very much hope that our American forum will become a little livelier by the new members. For quite a few new members have registered since that AMAZONAS issue has appeared some weeks ago. But we had to learn that there are great problems in getting hold of some licorice gouramis in the U.S. This is quite different here in Europe, especially in Germany. We have nearly all species in good numbers since we have a different tradition of breeding privately even those rare fish that need very special water and food. But I think with the help of ALFA, your new Anabantoid association, you will slowly go into the same direction.
For the time being, I can only repeat our invitation to the First International Meeting of our project in Hamburg (Germany), 28/29th September 2013.If there is only one visitor from the states he could go home with many pairs of many species, some even hitherto not scientifically described. The starting pairs of most of them have been privately caught at the original localities and therefore are correctly determined.
Best wishes, Ted, and try to get in contact with your colleagues in the U.S. If you need addresses, I shall be ready to send them to you.
And – please – write on your problems and experiences here!
