Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Dear Mike, thank you in return for your very conscious and honest answer. I assure you that your position sounds fully reasonable to me, and I support your way to proceed entirely.
My position will sound very hard and inexorable to many aquarists, I know. Therefore I shall try to explain it here with some words.
The Parosphromenus-project’s main aim is to inform about the Licorice gouramis: their diversity, their behaviour, their habitats, their demands on nutrition and milieu values, and their fate. In a way, they are ideal aquarium fish: small and colourful, peaceful and ready to be satisfied if given the right conditions. But their fate is imminent extinction. We think that an aquarist living far from the rainforest logging in south-east Asia should know this. He engages in a fine hobby, but he should be aware of its connexions and interrelations.
Most fish that are caught and sold for aquaristic purposes live a short life as individuals, die and are replaced by the next. The normal aquaristic hobby is consuming nature to large an extent. I do not reject that, but we should try to influence it to a certain degree: by making people more aware for the connexions and interrelations that are bound to a fine hobby that is followed by millions of addicts in the whole world. It’s commerce, too; we freely use the resources of nature for decorating our homes. That’s all right, too, it’s for pleasure and learning and both are good things. But we should be aware that sometimes we love fish which are highly endangered in nature, as the licorice are; there are others, too. And therefore there is a second aim bound to our project: to try to influence the hobby in general. The second aim is to participate to a certain degree in strategies to reduce the threat on natural diversity by using the hobby as a means to fight that mere consuming mentality.
The normal hobbyist (and I repeat: there are millions, far less in the case of the licorice, maybe one thousand? In our database there are about 250 addresses up to the present day, but nearly every week new friends join) is a mere fishkeeper. He could be a friend of nature, I admit, but he feels rather weak and powerless when the fight against the destruction of nature is concerned. As you told us quite convincingly. This is realistic an attitude. But I like to add: You are not powerless and weak. You can act, in small measures yourself, of course, but nevertheless: act. And you can influence the thinking and acting of others. By talking about it and behaving as a sort of model. There is a slight chance of changing the hobbyist’ world from mere keeping to participation in positive action. At least we can try to gather people who share this opinion.
This thinking is behind our website. Simply keeping nice fish for learning and pleasure is a fine thing; I never would dispute that. And what you, Mike, are intending is still more: Giving the fish a better home than in the tanks of the fish-seller. But trying to breed and propagate the fish not for putting it back to nature (that’s irrational, for many reasons) but for becoming a bit less dependent from their resources and from the markets is a reasonable aim. I read that from your lines. And therefore you are welcome here.
Thank you for the good wishes and have a happy New Year yourself.In principle, licorice gouramis and chocolate gouramis harmonize very well, since they both live in the same biotopes (small running blackwater streams in peat bog rainforest areas). Therefore both prefer deeply brownish coloured water of very low conductivity (well below 100 microsiemens/cm) and a pH well below 7.0, mostly between 3.0 and 6.0. Their preference of different regions in the waterbody (chocolate in free water and near the surface, licorice near to structures as caves and the bottom area) are appropriate, too.
But: Sphaerichtys could be much more aggressive than Parosphromenus and they have different movement and feeding habits. Doubtless, one could keep them together in a tank big enough for the establishment of rather separate territories, but then it could be difficult to feed the licorice appropriately. One thing is very difficult indeed: to breed both of them extensively in such a tank because the adequate feeding of the young is nearly impossible.
Whereas chocolates are still widespread living in nature presently (especially osphromenoides), the many variants of licorice are strongly confined to mostly small surviving habitats under high pressure of imminent destruction, and therefore all of them are rare and endangered fish. They are much more specialized than the chocolates. The Parosphromenus-project has not been launched in order to make licorice popular for simple fish-keeping, but to find people all around the world to engage in their sustainment. For an aquarist this means breeding them, in the first rate, and engaging in nature conservancy in south-east Asia.
Simply buying or catching a group of this rare fish and keeping them in a nice aquarium is nothing I would recommend. Simply keeping very rare and endangered fish just for establishing a decorative aquarium is somehow besides the reality; for this purpose there are enough nice fish which are not endangered at all.
But as I described in the beginning: It could really be a very good fish-community and a nice, biologically founded tank. Therefore I would suggest the following way to proceed: First one should learn to breed the licorice (and the chocolates). If interested in endangered rare fish, in my view this is a prerequisite to everything else. That means: You should breed a pair of these fish in a suitable small tank, better two or three species in two or three small tanks. Only there you will observe the full behaviour. A year later (or so) one could have enough offspring. Then time has come to establish that nice big tank following ecological and other biological considerations. Before it’s only fun without thoughts on the circumstances.Licorice gouramis could have problems with oxygen, of course. But then they deliberately use their labyrinth; normally they don’t use it at all. Only bubble-nest building males use it for that purpose. So if shipped, a certain amount of air must be available above the water surface, but it can be small.
They need very little amounts of dissolved oxygen in their waters. Therefore single fish or pairs can be transported in rather small plastic vessels (300 – 500 ml) without problems for one or two days; if finding a shelter (a leaf) they nearly don’t move (that’s an important point compared with many other fish!). And if the oxygen runs short they use their labyrinth. Ideal fish for being shipped. But as I said: There is the problem of temperature. That must be solved.The company UPS that is mentioned by Helene still exists. For the purpose of sending fish within Europe across the borders it is a good partner. But there is another problem.
Horst Linke phoned me some days ago and asked me how the distribution service is running. I told him that now, in the European winter, it’s not very active but that we re-organized it during the last weeks. At least in Germany, more than 10 breeders with 9 species are involved now and will offer their offspring in 2012, but only two of them using post-parcel-distribution now during the winter period. We agreed that the risk of sharply decending temperatures is the biggest problem to overcome.
At that point of our telephone call he told me that he had heared rumours about a new plastic material that is able to keep the outside cold off to a very much better degree than styropor. He promised to enquire about the factoring company and the details (name, properties, availability) of that stuff.
I think, that would be a real progress, since a parcel sent by UPS in Europe may sometimes take three, four or even five days. In winter heating packs are a necessity since during the nights temperatures could go down sharply. But heating packs are not easy to be measured out. A better isolating package material than styropor would be of much greater use.
The best method would be for each breeder to have a special box manufactured from that ideal material including well fitting small plastic vessels for the fish which he uses for shipping the fish to the customer, and the customer sends it back including the empty vessels to the breeder. I think this would be a prerequesite for shipping licorice gouramis within Europe accross the borders. Customs is no longer a problem between most of the countries, but shipping time nevertheless can take several days resp. nights. During summer time we can be lucky with our styopor boxes already, but the other half of the year is risky if we are unable to make progress by the method of packing.
I don’t see other problems. Licorice are content with smallest vessels contaning a leaf, they are not swimming around but “sit” quietly below that leaf, there is no oxgen problem. But the problem of temperatures exists. They stand 16 degrees Celsius for a day, maybe two. But not for three or four days, and if temperatures fall below that border (no problem in winter in Europe; even within a Styropor box with thick walls: it need only some hours) then they will not stand it.The problem of Manticora-Knut has to be taken very serious indeed but I know of no reliable investigation. The information that Coleps spec. could act as destroyer organisms for eggs or larvae is new, at least to me. I think many friends would be grateful to you if you could tell us some more details about that genus, Knut.
If one does not know anything about such causes of misfortune with breeding, one thing is old knowledge nevertheless: the importance of the lowest density of germs possible. In aquaria, a low density is very hard to achieve. Even the best results indicate a density a hundred or thousand times higher than in natural blackwaters. The main reason why blackwater organisms seldom survive for longer in clear waters, at least are nearly unable to reproduce there, is the fact that the density of micro-organisms is in clearwater normally much higher than in blackwater.
We have only one means to influence that density in the direction of reducing it, and that’s pH. If we are lucky, our licorice will successfully propagate in tanks with a pH of 6 or 6.5, hardly more. It will work if we somehow manage to get the micro-organisms remain at a low level. But mostly we can’t. And then only a strong pH-reduction is the way out (4 or even less, German Master breeder G. Kopic once had success with parvulus only after pH-reduction to 3.0).
Knut: which was the pH when you had that bad experiences with destructive micro-organisms?I am very grateful that you described that breathing bags, Bill. And not only the bags, but also the manner to use them and the “normality” of fish-shipping in a large country as the U.S. I hoped that somebody would do that, since the problem discussed here is not only a problem of Europe.
But I want to add two things: First, in Europe we have different countries with different posting systems. And there is some sort of customs control in spite of all political agreements to leave that aside. I don’t know what happens if the content is described as “live fish”. That means, shipments could take a day or two or three days more. Anyway, if packed intelligently (as you described it), there will be no real danger. Especially for Paros which can be shipped safer than any other fish for the reasons I described.
And that is my second remark: Breathing bags are certainly a good thing (we can get them here too), but the advantage is really good with other fish that breathe a lot, that like to move, that are bigger, that depend fully on their gill-breathing. Our licorice gouramis are just ideal fish for being sent via parcel: they are small, they don’t hate darkness, they don’t swim very much, they creep under a leave and stay quiet and don’t move, they don’t like high temperatures and they are used to very small water space. It’s another thing if you are a commercial import company; then you must pack a hundred fish in a big bag; that’s a different situation. But if you are an aquarist ordering two pairs of the offpring from a private breeder or if you are that breeder asked to ship two pairs of licorice to a private address, then you can see things differently. Many European breeders ship their fish singly or in pairs in very small plastic bottles, several within one parcel. The advantage is the firm wall of the bottles; there could hardly be any accident. With the licorice you don’t really need the advantages of the breathing bags; that will only pay out with the trading in big numbers or with other fish.The issue is not of solely European importance, therefore we should talk about it in a general manner in the “global” section. But certainly: as the European aspects are concerned, we have that problem here in all its facets, of course: Many country-borders in all directions, different posting companies, and in spite of the European market still different customs traditions. And different languages, of course.
The main problem we have is time. A journey exceeding three or (maximum) four days will simply be too long even for licirice gouramis. For, these fish stand being sent via post-parcel better than all other fish, certainly better than guppies. There are three preconditions, of course:
(1) The sender may not make any severe mistake (see below), (2) the fish should be in good conditions, and (3) the journey should not exceed three days at the most. Let me explain this:– Licorice gouramis are labyrinths. In normal aquarium care they don’t use their labyrinth at all. But that organ is well developed and will be used instantly if conditions deteriorate. Therefore, we have nearly no problem with oxygen.
– But: There are fish that are used to swim around and others that are rather quietly staying at one place. Even many labyrinths belong to the former category. Licorice belong to the latter. All fish of the first category are less safe to be sent than those of the quiet group.
– Licorice are the most quiet fish we know. If sent in a small dark amount of water with one or two old beech or oak leaves in it, they will “sit” below a leaf and stay there and don’t move. The best a fish can do in that situation.
– Licorice are no high-temperature fish but as members of the often cooler (because shadier) rainforest biotopes they stand a certain decline of temperatures better than the opposite.
– Licorice are used to very small home ranges. They can be bred in 10-liter-tanks (Allan Brown used 5-liter-tanks!) and do not show any signs of discomfort. Of course, a small group of these fish should normally be given more space to battle at the borders of their cave-quarters and lokk for alternatives. But one pair is totally content with a very small place.Of course, one has to avoid heavy mistakes. The most dangerous is no care against very deep temperatures. Temperature falling below 16 degrees Celsius is the biggest danger at a too-long journey. A styopore box must have thick walls, but that does not suffice. In case of very deep temperatures one has to use heat packs with care. This requires experience. Therefore, in the cold season the problems are great. In the warm season they are much less great. Another heavy mistake is putting too many fish in one bag. Generally one should avoid the normal fish bags and prefer containers with hard walls. The best is sending the fish singly in small plastic bottles or plastic containers with screwing top. They can be very small indeed: 300 milliliter, half-grown even a bit smaller, the bigger 500 milliliter are sufficient (for one fish!).
This are all things that can be learned and the mistakes avoided. Given this as precondition, licorice gouramis are the best fish to be sent by post-parcel. Then, if the journey lasts not for longer than two days, they will safely arrive. Karen Koomams often sent licorice from the Netherlands to Sweden oder received fish from Finland (there was an anjunganensis specialist). The journeys often took three days an dit was no problem. Once it took five days and it was no problem. But this is risky, of course. Too long journeys with incalculable stops at the customs or companies that throw the parcels and repack it several times and store it too cold or too hot: That’s not advisable, and that’s the problem. Not the sort of package or the precautions that the sender can learn.
We have many experience with one or two day sendings in Germany. Licorice gouramis stand this much better than any other fish (except killi-fish eggs, not the fish: the eggs!) for the reasons named. Guppies are much more fastidious (Bartian!). The problem is the mistakes that the sennder should avoid and the incalculable length of journeys within a continent with many borders. We have too little experience with this. Within the borders of the Eurpean union and the Maastricht zone customs should no longer be a problem. But is that true in practice?
Certainly, the meetings of associations are very good opportunities to exchange fish. At the IGL- or EAC-meetings in Germany there are private exchange markets mostly with several licorice species. But this does not solve our problem. You have to travel for more or less long distances yourself and that’s expensive. You can do that in some cases, but many can’t do it. Therefore sending Paros with post-parcel is a serious alternative, if … well, if the preconditions are to be fulfilled. If not, it should be avoided, of course.
Hugues helps Bartian: a wonderful example of how useful the forum may be! Help accross the countries’ borders. We are bad in that, still. Our network in Germany works realtively good, perhaps in Denmark or Sweden too. Even with sending fish by post-parcel. But we are still bad in sending privately grown fish across borders. Has anyone an idea? Has anyone experience with privately sending fish by post-parcel across country-borders in Europe? What about customs? How long will it take (how many days) to arrive? There are many requests to our German breeders for sending fish to -say- France or Italy or Poland. Has anyone done this already? It must be possible.
Not always fate is lucky as here in the case of Hugues ans Bartian.Dear “bartian”, please write a personal mail to me, mailto: peter.finke@t-online.de
I shall try to help you. In it, please tell me your name and living place.
(It would be easier if you logged-in here; then we would have your mail-address and could write to you directly).O yes, do not only keep the eyes open; better buy some pairs! For several reasons: Firstly, opallios is generally very rarely traded, in the whole of Europe (resp. the world)! I don’t know of any import list of recent years that contained this species. One reason certainly is the fact that opallios is a species from Kalimantan (Borneo), and there are generally only few imports from there, ornaticauda, anjunganensis and linkei excluded. Secondly, our last census tells us that opallios has been nearly lost in our aquarium stocks. This should be a strong reason to get hold of some animals now. We must seriously try to alter that and build a strong opalliosbreeding stock!
I very much hope that friends in other European countries place a note here if they find this species on lists there during the weeks to come! As I generally should advice us to tell us at this place about offers of interesting Parosphromenus-species in the different European countries, spec. Sentang and “Blue line” excluded (which mostly means “deissneri”, too. But in case of “deissneri” an exact verification is always advisable. We know of no import of the true deissneri in recent years in spite of many lists containing that name. There was only one import in the whole history of commercial licorice-gourami-imports that really contained that remarkably large and impressive species living exclusively on Bangka!).Yesterday December 6th 2011, the first friend from the people’s republic of China became member of our Parsosphromenus-projct. David from Shanghai, welcome!
Yes Patrick, it is worth to try it, I agree. I use lava granulate in many of my small 12-liter-tanks. For the reasons you mention. But let me add some further points.
There are good breeders of Parosphromenus who dispense with a gravel entirely. Then you definitely need a small filter as a “home” for the useful bacteria. They settle on all surfaces (glass roofs, plant leaves, wood etc.), it is true, but the gravel enlarges that settling space by far. Therefore I put normally a very thin (a few millimeters) layer of gravels on the ground and dispense of a filter. Admittedly, a small bubble filter make things safer.
The lava is sold in different granulations. I prefer the smaller instead of the biggest. But in different tanks I use other materials, too. I don’t like the light forms, but I did not experience any bad effects on the fish if I used them. (The artificially coloured materials are disgusting, I think). Anyhow, there are mostly beech or oak leaves placed on it, at least on parts of the bottom.
For people who concentrate on breeding their fish a “normally” planted tank is not the first choice. I have a few of them nevertheless as eye catchers; one can raise young fish in them or use them for housing small groups of licorice gouramis, but not for breeding purposes. In my small breeding tanks there are mosly plants, nevertheless, but a reduced number of species that don’t need a high layer of gravel or gravel at all; in some cases (Cryptocoryne) I plant them in very small pots. I think that friends of Parosphromenus should concentrate on breeding, because these fish are rare and endangered. And the breeding is very interesting an adventure; it’s the most interesting part of the Paro-aquaristics.
And for this lava granulate is a very good base at the ground of the tank. There is another advantage of it: The very young fish that just have left the cave hide in the first time (two weeks or more) mostly on the ground. If there are leaves they could be found below. But the adult fish will find them there, too. The young are so mall, however, that they can hide even deeper: in the small spaces of the lava granulate. For this.lava is better than any other material, except peat fibres.
You are right, Patrick.Very young fry of licorice gouramis is hard to detect in a fully established tank with plants. Mostly it resides near the bottom for one week or even more, but it depends on the tank-structure. If there are many plants and pieces of wood, fry could to be found at higher places too. But mostly it prefers the lowest places. But even knowing this it could be overlooked. Normally it will find enough food at that places if the tank is old established. But you must feed rotifiers and/or nourishing infusoria actively. Mostly, from 14 days on the fry will become more apparent at different places in the tank, including the surface. There are many cases in which a rather large amount of young has been detected very lately (several weeks), if there are many hiding places and a good base of nourishment.
But these facts – especially the difficult control of feeding – motivate many breeders to breed their licorice gouramis not in such tanks but in “empty” containers separated from the adults. Otherwise a breeder could hardly do a rational job; it’s all working by chance. The more natural method but at the same time the more unpredictable surely is yours.I have posted this information on 2-amino-5-nitrothiazole earlier in this forum but I can repeat it again.
Very successfull breeders of Parosphromenus and Betta species in Germany found out (about six years or more ago) that a medicine sold here to combat hole disease with Discus worked perfectly in erasing Oodinium. The medicine is called “Hexa-Ex”, it is manufactured by the big company “Tetra” and sold as tablet. Shortly after Tetra another company, JBL, sold the same medicine with the name “Spirohexol”.
And the point is: Both products consist of only one ingredient: 2-amino-5-nitrothiazole.
Since that time all of us only use this medicine to combat Oodinium. All other methods have proved to be not as effective than this.
Many of us have tried to get this chemical substance free as a powder. This is difficult, for it is sold only to veterinarians. I do not know why.
When Jacob mentioned a problem with Oodinium, I suggested to him trying to get hold of Hexa-Ex (Tetra) or Spirohexol (JBL) or the substance directly. But he replied that he could not find it.
I only can repeat our experience: It’s the best medicine against that disease. There is no problem with dosage. We have never experienced any secondary effects.
Certainly, it’s a strong chemical means. We all prefer more natural methods or lighter chemical means. But there have been severe losses of valuable fish (self-caught, few specimen, the last of a form) by that lighter methods. Since that time we use 2-amino-5-nitrothiazole if things mus be combatted successfully. (By the way: The substance must be stored very cool, best in a refrigerator. Otherwise the yellow will turn into a brown and the stuff will become worthless).November 25th, 2011: Dear Tony,I want to thank you for moderating this new forum from the beginning. It was a great help to know you being the moderator in the first months. I am sure that this has helped very much getting things into working.
Now, near the end of our first year, the moderation has been changed to Mark Denaro (from “Anubias Design”). Many greetings to you, Mark! Let us hope that we can further promote the keeping and breeding (!) of the Licorice Gouramis in America! Be welcomed!
