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I refer to the picture that Colin gave us here. He says that this is the original picture of the fish called “deissneri” that the exporter used. Well, well! Or better: not well! It’s a background reminding of a detective story.
This picture was taken by Hans-Joachim Franke as one of a well-known series that he shot in the seventies of the fish he received from Dr. Walther Foersch. Franke, at that time a famous specialist for labyrinths in the GDR, was in contact with Foersch in Munich and was lucky to get some of this fish, because the GDR was a closed communist state. Foersch was the first to discover the real breeding conditions of these fish. He had received his fish from Dietrich Schaller (“Trichopsis schalleri”), who caught them after having adviced by Eric Alfred (at that time head of the Raffles Museum Singapore) at Ayer Hitam. At that time this was one of the few places known for the occurrence of P. “deissneri”, as they were called. Later on, many people caught these fish at this place. As Kottelat and Ng tell us 2005 (in their publication containing the last up to now decribed six species, including P. tweediei) the fish from Ayer Hitam belonged to what we today call P.tweediei. There are some open questions with this description, however, referring to the variability of tweediei: it seems to be markedly greater than stated by Kottelat and Ng. The fish Foersch had (which I saw there with him) and which Franke received form him (and others too, in fact I received a pair, too) were obviously such a variant of what we today call tweediei, at that times they were called (as others) “deissneri”. By the way: Today Ayer Hitam is completely destroyed.
Therefore the exporter uses a very old photo of a fish that shows a variant of tweediei, but definitely not the fish we call deissneri today. Obviously he makes no difference between some very distinct Parosphromenus-species with round caudal fin and calls all of them (as all of us did in former times) “deissneri” (and so does most of the trade till the present day, but we should not continue this practice). Today, the male real deissneri is well-defined and clearly distinguished from all others at first sight by the publication of Kottelat and Ng from 1998 (describing bintan and redescribing deissneri); look at our species account.
Therefore, either the picture shows the fish which the exporter sells, then it is not deissneri. Or he only gives a nice photo of a nice fish (following the motto: Well, you should not make such a fuss about it, they all look very similar), and then the question must be open what species he sells with this false name. He states that the fish come from Bangka island. So, if this at least is true: There are at least two species occuring, bintan and deissneri. The males are completely different, to be seen at the first sight. But his picture shows neither the one nor the other. P. bintan is excluded by colour, P. deissneri is excluded by structure,too. The most likely explanation is that the fish offered is one of the many “other forms” which are somewhat bintan-like. But the picture does not help us to solve the puzzle.
A Parosphromenus detective story …
A word to C.Way: contact Anthony that he tells you the exporter.No, I am very sorry, but Anthony’s picture does not display the real deissneri. It’s displaying a fish of the bintan-group with a slightly pointed caudal fin and some brownish-reddish tinge in it’s unpaired fins.
To compare with deissneri please refer to our species account and the pictures over there. Even when very young the deissneri-males have a markedly pointed caudal fin with a black filament just similar to filamentosus. Even the females have a short filament but not as long and conspicous as in the males. The hyaline stripes in the dorsal and anal fins of the males are completely broken up into single short stripes standing much more upright. The most typical is that marking in the caudal: Never a continous band, always the characteristically distinct short stripes which run strictly parallel.
Anthony: Is your picture intended to show us the fish that is offered as “deissneri from Bangka”? Then this offer will not be deissneri. But perhaps the picture is really an old one used for illustration purposes by your partner in Asia. Then, it must remain an open question whether the “deissneri from Bangka” in the new offer will really be deissneri. The fish offered may well be caught on Bangka. There is bintan occurring on Bangka and there is some rumour about a third species of a bintan-like form. But maybe it’s deissneri. That is possible, of course. But then it must be another fish than shown on this photo.Anthony, you should place this in our American-category, too, because it’s likely that most of your customers will be friends of these fish in the US.
Most remarkable is that r e a l deissneri seem to be included! If they don’t confuse the animals with bintan from Bangka (which is possible), then the given location “from Bangka” seems to be plain and clear!
By the way: We work on a new system of fish-dstribution, using the button “distribution” in our main-menue. When it is ready, we can tell for example your address at this place as somebody who for the US-market often tries to have import-licorice-gouramis in his stock. But it will take some time, still.Haha, Paro-friends follow Paro-friends, wherever they are to be found. There are not many, and therefore they meet at the few places at hand. And additionally: quality is even rarer. And therefore we are glad about Tom’s pictures.
But I wonder: How many Parosphromenus-addicts are there in the UK at present? When Willi Harvey began with all that, he was rather alone. But during the years of Barbara and Allan Brown the number grew. Is it falling again in the after-Brown-time? Coud we do somethng against it? I think, both of you do, Colin and Tom.Tom, only now I had time to see your marvellous film. With this tank you succeeded to realize one thing that many peope try but fail: to create a somehow natural milieu with wood, plants, shrimps and different fish that harmonize with each other: it’s a fine community, very subtle elected, not (as usual) dominated by many or large fish, but remaining a big secret, a secret window in an alien world. Congratulations, this is aquaristics at it’s best!
Normally, a friend of the licorice gouramis will keep them in smaller tanks, often without many plants, for the aim is to breed them. But if one was successfull in that, often there are quite a lot of young, and only a part of them can be given away. Then you have enough fish to think of such a decorative and contantly surprising masterpiece of an aquarium, and you can view the licorice gouramis from quite different an angle: just as the secret viewer of their life in nature (or at least something rather near to that).
We would be very glad to see more of your fine work!Yes, 4 or even 6 males to 1 female is a bit bad a ratio. And your tank is rather big (Couldn’t you separate 3 compartments?). But do I understand it correctly, the female is much bigger (and older?) than the males? Then you must wait a bit unteilthe amles try to display in front of the female. Then it’s time to separate them; gstringly ive her 1 or 2 males, and when one male is occupying the cave and displaying with the female, remove the second. Then you have the chance for young, but hardly with the ratio 6:1. As long as they are too young they will not molest the female, but soon they will.
Martin, to determinate your fish is difficult for the best experts. I asked Martin Hallmann to look at the pictures (amended by Tom) and he says (translated):
Its definitely not opallios, probably not spec. Sentang (which is more homogeneously coloured), so it maybe a local type of bintan (not Bangka, which is somewhat differently looking) or even a type of alfredi (which sometimes looses the red parts in its fins in becoming older; we have seen this many times). But since the fish is rather young this is unlikely. Probably a certain bintan-type.
But that means a lot of open questions. The fish may come from the southern parts of western Malaysia (unlikely), from the locations of bintan except Bangka, or especially from Sumatra where we have been known many similar bintan-like forms in the last years. In my view (PF) this is the most likely origin of the fish since from there many of the (undescribed) trade-Paros of the last years have come.
That’s clearly formulated, the problem has been confined, but is not solved up to now! So be proud: We do not know exactly what it is, but you probably keep one of the undescribed variants of bintan.
Patrick, thank you for your short diary. In the moment I cannot detect any bad mistake that you made. The development of the single stages seems to be fully correct. I can see only two possible causes:
1. either too much change with waters not fully identical with the original tank-water,
2. or fed too much Artemia with an overload of organical waste to the water
I recommend you the following:
3. If your pair is a good pair, it will breed again soon. If your tank is full of plants, leave the next fry where they are with their parents. Often, some or many young will survive (“extensive breeding”).
4. If your tank is not full of plants, remove the adult fish at that stage whre you removed the young this time. If you have a similar tank, the adult pair will breed again when you put it in there. Mostly, Parosphromenus breed soon after a good feed, a water change, or transferred in a new tank.
5. Feed infusoria a bit longer and Artemia a week later.
Good luck!The water: Since long I think that the fears and alarms on the delicacies and difficulties of Parosphromenus-fish are exaggerated. There are many cases that successfulbreeding has taken place with pH between 6 and 7, but always below 7. A low pH of the natural habitats is mostly an insurance of the absence of too many nocious germs, and this is mainly the function in the aquarium, too. If it is possible to keep the milieu rather free of a germ-concentration too high, then it will work with a higher pH, too. But the “softness” of the water is eesential, not for the adult fish but for the eggs and the very young.
The light: The problem is that light may induce too much chemical plant activity and induce instability of the water-parameters. Again, this is mostly no probmen for adult Paros, but young must be lucky to get a milieu as stable as possible. So, a good plant activity is doubtlessly very good for a fish-friendly milieu in general, but the fish from blackwaters are specialists that need their requirements. Myself, I am often working with many thriving plants, too, but it is always difficult to decide whether it’s good for the very young fish or not. The normal planted aquarium using fertilizers and much fast growing leafwork below the water-surface may produce conflicts. Many Parosphromenus cannot fully dispose of their peculiarities of a long adaptation to blackwater conditions.
But nevertheless: Even they (not their eggs ot very young larvae) are adaptive to a certain extent. One should make some experiments to find out one’s own best method. All our experiences show that five good Paro-breeders have developed five different methods.Helene is fully right, welcome Tom!
Mostly I am impressed by the best photos of spec. Sentang – Paros I have ever seen. They are not really colourful variants of the bintan-group, I had them once myself in my tanks. But I have never seen them in such splendid photos that tell us: Even the spec. Sentang are beautiful fish! Tanks a lot, Tom. And Helene: When we are ready to supplement our “other forms”-accounts, we must use some pictures of Tom’s to illustrate the spec. Sentang!Patrick, that’s sad. But in order to assess the real causes of that, please describe a bit more precisely
– in what sort of tank did you transfere the young?
– what was the condition of the larvae when you did that?
– did they really feed already?
I am very doubtful on the latter. First, the larvae need mostly about a week until hurrying around in the cave. And that is no free-swimming already. If you transferred them in this condition ( rightly) then they are by far not ready to consume food. They still feed on the reservoir they have for their own. Until they really swim free they do not need anything else. It is often nearly a week more until they really swim free and must be fed. And very often then Artemia is too big for them.
So, please tell us a bit more precise what you did and saw when. I doubt that they really fed already on Artemia. And they might be damaged by the development of bacteria by too early given uneaten Artemia.Thank you Patrick, you got it! And thank you Mathias for – certainly!- a question which surely is of interest to all of us!
Dear friends, we are grateful for any question and note in any language. But mind: We are communicating in an internationally based project; this here is the category “global”. Please try (try, it’s a request!) to speak English and be conscious to include the whole community (parts of Europe that speak no German, America, Asia) that shall be included in the “global” sector. We have offered free choice of language, of course, but we should t r y not to exclude the world by language. We will tolerate German, of course. But there should be no development to a German speaking forum. The real needs are in other oarts of the world.
If you feed with care – not too much, only what is eaten in two or three hours – less change is sufficient, say one or two liters. Careful feeding is more effective than water changing. There should be water change, of course, but only slightly. If you miss it a day or even two there will be no problem, I think.
Martin, unfortunately both of your pictures are too dark to say safely what it is.It is a form from the bintan-complex, that’s for sure. And it is probably not bintan itself but most likely spec. “Blue line” from Sumatra which was imported in high numbers during the last years. Wonderful fish, in my view more beautiful than the nominate species bintan. The hitherto undescribed “blue lines” are most likely no “new species” but a subspecies or a semispecies to bintan, but I am not sure whether bintan itself will be a valid species. In any case there are a lot of variants close to bintan to be found on Sumatra, say spec. Sungaibertam or spec. Dabo or spec. Sentang. We must see especially the colour of the Caudale more precisely. With spec. Blue line it could often have a slight brown or nearly reddish tinge in the dark center. But often this is to be seen only later when the animals are grown up. And – alas! – there have been different fish already been sold bearing the name “blue line” in trade. The trade business is hopelessly overcharged with this question of determining the fish of the bintan-complex rightly: anyway, mostly they are sold as “deissneri” (which is nonsense, of course). Your fish are still rather young, from this year. Wait, but for sure: They are beautiful. I hope you have females, too? – And I give you the advice to buy the anjunganensis: They are easily to be identified and they are beautiful too and relatively easy to be bred.
