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I should like to say my opinion on that; it’s quite rigorous.
Of course, you can “keep” licorice gouramis in a 500- or even a thousand liters tank; their home rivers are much bigger. But you should not, I think:
1. The home-range of a pair is not larger than 10 to 50 liters. And the home range of a group of four or five pairs is not larger than an average structured aquarium of about 100 or 150 liters.
2. To maintain a blackwater tank with a stable milieu is much easier if it is small than if it is that big. It’s a task for a professional museum.
3. Simply “keeping” these fish in a decorative tank is in my view doing the wrong thing with rare, heavily endangered species. They are not “pet fish” like others always at hand in the shops. Trying to keep them in such a way that they could breed successfully, must have priority.
4. Think of the fact that most Parosphromenus offered in pet shops are wild catches. When you have bred the fish yourself, you might think of displaying a small group of them in a bigger tank and look what happens.
5. I do not think that if you do this you will observe substantially “more” in you big tank than you would in a small. On the contrary: you will surely observe less.
6. Without doubt, you can observe some interesting antagonistic and pairing (etc.) behaviour if working with small groups instead of pairs, and therefore tanks bigger than 20 liters up to 150 liters. But raising the young will be very difficult indeed. However, there some specialists (K. Koomans!) have been successful with this in small numbers.
I do not repeat the general problems of feeding.To me the fish looks very much like P. spec. Sentang (“sintangensis”) from Sumatra. Definitely it is none of the species from western Malaysia, and probably it’s none of the well-know species and variants from Kalimantan and certainly not from Sarawak. There are many bintan-like variants living on Sumatra. P. spec. Sentang is one of the most-caught and most-exported licorice gouramis of the last two or three years. In that respect, it’s predecessor was P. “blue line”, equally from Sumatra, which has been exported in high quantities. Obviously, the share of the catches fell sharply after 2008, and the Sentang form replaced them in the lists of the exporters. They tried to push the fish by naming them with the latinized “sintangensis”-name which is invalid since it is not based on any serious description. As it is the case with many other licorice gouramis, many people don’t bother with the distinctions between species and variants and simply call them all the most prominent and oldest name “deissneri”. Martin wrote correctly that this fish is definitely not of that species from Bangka; the true deissneri is simply and clearly to be identified (see our species account). Unfortunately, our scheduled pages in this website on the hitherto scientifically unidentified “other forms” are not ready to be publicized; therefore all the Sumatra variants of bintan-like fish (as spec. Sentang or spec. “blue line” or spec. Dabo or spec. Sungai Bertam etc.) are presently not described systematically anywhere in publications or the web.
Environmental Politics and Power in Indonesia [Paperback]
Hariadi Kartodiharjo (Editor), Hira Jhamtani (Editor)Equinox Publishing (2009)
A valuable book for all who want to learn something about the backgrounds of Indonesian environmental politics. We are informed that natural resource degradation in Indonesia has come with high costs – financially, culturally, physically and socially. Much of this can be attributed to inappropriate policies, market forces, power and political interests, inadequate and inappropriate development programs and policies, and also the lack of community involvement in natural resource governance. This book outlines the various political, economic and social forces at work through various historical periods that have led to such disasters and degradation. It also presents an analysis of some of the dominant trends such as increasing privatization, commoditization of resources, and monoculture practices and promotion and their consequences for Indonesia. The effects of these trends on local communities and indigenous peoples have been quite devastating. The book also outlines broad global trends and their consequences for development and the environment in Indonesia. It refrains from providing prescriptive recommendations, but presents an in-depth analysis of the interplay of forces that have led to such disasters and provides, as points of reference, some local initiatives (some that have been time-tested) from which the reader can draw inspiration and hope for reversing the escalating ecological crisis in Indonesia, especially as rights, resource access and livelihoods of local communities are being threatened.
Disenchanting, disillusioning, sobering down. But also encouraging with respect to the changing attitudes and growing consciousness and courage of local initiatives and the perspectives of real grass-root networking.
Dear Beutho, I am attending a conference in Frankfurt 22th July (Oeko-house, near station Frankfurt west). I very much would take some (two young pairs, 4 ex.) of your young Cherating, for my fish have died from Oodinium. This might be done either before (12 – 13) or after (17.30 – 18.30) the conference.
Could we arrange that somehow? And have some small-talk?1. UV-filtration: There are no definite results of long-time experiments. The technique is useful for short-time application for well-defined situations (i.e. the removal of chemical additives or the destruction of “green water”) but not as a permanent part of a stable aquarium system. The effect depends on the electrical details of the lamp, on the quantity of the water-flow and other parameters. Humine substances may very well be deformed and destroyed; they are chemically not uniformous. In any case UV-filtration a deep technical manipulation of the water-body and the whole living-system (e.g. Fe which plants need for growing will be severely affected by it). For a healthy and stable blackwater tank it is unnecessary and even dangerous.
2. pH-shock: You should be careful in any case, especially if the difference is a full pH-step or more. If you have sensitive and valuable fish (as Parosphromenus or Sphaerichthys) you should adjust the water in no less than one hour, maybe more. Very cautious people do it by a “drip-method”.
On the other hand: I have often adjusted waters for and with Parosphromenus much more quickly up and down, sometimes one value within a quarter of an hour, and there was never a problem. It depends on the individual fish. Healthy and vital fish will mostly stay that (not if the difference is bigger!). But this is not a recommendation. There were situations in which the fish signalled discomfort under the new conditions. In two or three cases I had quickly to lessen the difference.
If you take time, one hour at least, better two, you will be on the safe side, especially with a difference of half a pH-step or less. Remind: Often, the fish are somehow weakened. Then my advice to be cautious holds so much the more.In that interesting discussion with our american friend Jacob on blackwater aquaristics I mentioned the importance of low germ density and named a product of the Merck-Company for measuring that in the aquarium (post 145). Later (post 183) Jacob told us that this product will be no longer available, at least in the U.S.
Here is a link to another Company that sells a testing Kit equally conveniant, but it is to be proven in which country it is available.http://www.windaus.de/1828700226/126/PD67/419900015a_319/bes/Keimzahl/0/1/Windaus+Bild.html
This post has been moved from another kategori, as it was meant to be here. For this reason it may seem ‘out of order’ because it has been moved at a later time than the discussion took place / Helene Schoubye, webmaster
That’s an interesting topic and there is much information on it. But I do not know a place where it is gathered in a comprehensive way.
All experts agree that the development of young Parosphromenusneeds more time than with many other fish. Less than half a year until reaching the adult stadium is never experienced. I know of licorice gouramis bred by commercial breeders (who normally don’t breed these fish at all) that were only seven months and quite big and ready for spawning, but they were fed very intensively by Tubifex and in many cases didn’t live long later on. Many experts speak of (and experience themselves) three quarters of a year as the least. The pioneer Dr. Walther Foersch wrote of an interval of four or more weeks in the middle of the growing phase. In my opinion this depends on the circumstances; good, but diversified feeding and frequent water-change shortens the time they need for growing and may even let fall away that interval.
Therefore the time-span that Beutho tells us is to be seen as quite normal. That’s much compared with many other fish. But it does not indicate wrong treatment or false aquarist methods.
On the other hand, the fish we receive via the trade are mostly young fish of the last spawning period. Often, they arrive not yet in the adult stadium but still need two to four months in good care. That might indicate a somewhat faster development in nature. But I am not sure. The young fish of this year are the parent fish of next year’s spawning period. Therefore, a big difference to our aquarium observations is not to be seen. But we observe another thing, too: Some individuals of the same spawn grow faster, others less fast. This is a natural adaption, nature’s precaution against fate.
In general one can say: Parosphromenus are slow growers.There is a rather comprehensive bibliography of literature on Parosphromenus, assembled by Dr. Jürgen Schmidt/D. Jürgen permitted me since long to introduce it into the open discussion, but I found no time to do that. Now, a small work-group on literature abount labyrinths has updated it. I shall receive it in a few weeks time, probably.
But in view of the interest the subject matter reveives, I shall send the first-mentioned version to Helene and she surely will publish it provisionally in our menu “Literature and weblinks” in short time. Later on, it will be substituted by the newer version.Robert Goldstein mailed me a new stocklist commented by the Sales Manager of “The Wet Spot Tropical Fish” in Portland, and I think that should put here in extracts:
“(…) Lately I have had several people ask about Licorice Gourami types. I’ve been asked not only about their availability, but also their popularity here in the U.S. Many of you have tried to research the few species we are offering and didn’t have much luck finding any information about them. That is because even though they have been available for years and they are unusual fish, there is no real demand for them among hobbyists. Because of this, I thought it was time to talk about these truly beautiful and underrated species.
All Licorice Gouramis should be kept in a dimly lit tank with plenty of hiding places and minimal water flow. They prefer acidic water (5.5-7 pH) that is kept in cooler temperature ranges (71-78 degrees). In my experience these fish will only accept live foods, and therefore are not the best for newer hobbyists. These fish are extremely peaceful among other fish and I would highly recommend a group of the beautiful Sundadanio axelrodi “Neon Rasbora Blue Form” to go with them. Care is the same for all species of Licorice Gourami.
Right now we have three types of Licorice Gouramis available:
Parosphromenus deissneri “Licorice Gourami” is probably the most common of the group. I believe this to be one of the larger of the species, growing to just around 1.75″. But do not count it out because of its small size – this Labyrinth fish packs an amazing amount of color in its small stature! Its body has two horizontal black lines against three contrasting horizontal tan lines running down its body, and vibrant blue fins. This fish really stands out in any aquarium!
The last two types we are offering are Parosphromenus filamentosus “Filament Licorice Gourami”, which has the same markings as its cousin, but has a spade-tail that is colored red and bordered with black and blue. The other is Parosphromeus ornaticauda “Ornate Licorice Gourami”, one of the smallest of the group at just over an inch! This fish is a darker color of brown and the lines are not as prominently black as its other cousins. The fins are black with bright white borders on both the anal and dorsal fin.
Well, I hope this enlightens some of you about another part of the hobby. (…)
I (PF) comment here only that this reveals that the so-called “deissneri” is not that species (it’s usually not that species). Where do I know? Because of the remark (in the descripton of filamentosus) that it had a spade-tail. The true male deissneri has too, even a filament similar to filamentosus. On the other hand are the colour markings very different. Compare the pictures in our species-descriptions. But which species is this alleged “deissneri” in fact? It’s impossible to say by that description. The “vibrant blue fins” may indicate “blue line” (from Sumatra), which is very often in trade in the last years (and mostly called “deissneri”), but it’s not described exactly enough to exclude many other possible species or variants.
Anyway: There are dealers who try to make licorice gouramis more popular and their recommendations are, generally speaking, quite right.I aqcuired fish declared as bintan from “Tropicwater” some months ago. German Parosphromenus-pioneer Günter Kopic did also a little later. We both confirm our fish to be bintan, and they were (and are) in excellent condition. Offspring is already growing.
Of course, we cannot guarantee the present fish to be surely bintan; but the company takes things serious.I have experienced this co-appearance of small green (!) Hydra spec. with Artemia-feeding too, but only now and then, quite irregularly.
If you don’t know Flubenol as a very efficient and safe remedy against that, I direct you to my message No. 231 in reply to Jacob’s problem (see American/Methods).There is an absolutely effective remedy against Hydra and Planaria. The entry in Wipikedia says: “Flubendazole is an anthelmintic. Its brand name is Flutelmium which is a paste manufactured by Janssen Pharmaceutica N.V. used by veterinarians for protection against internal parasites and worms in dogs and cats. Other brand names are Flubenol, Biovermin, and Flumoxal.”
Many of us in Europe have used it (here it is called “Flubenol”) as a white powder with definitely sure success against Hydra even when applied in very small doses. In a tank of about 25 liters you only have to put a very small amount (“a knife’s point”) on the water surface, it will spread there and one day later you will see the Hydra contract themselves and disappear. I never had fish loss or fish indisposition after its use.
But some aquarists dissuade from using it in presence of shrimps, others do not assent. I should be careful with that.
You should provide for a small amount. Try to get the powder-form, it’s easier to apply.
I do not know whether there is an aquarium-brand of this product in the U.S. Here in Europe there is none.Jacob, you are fully right: blackwater tanks are not as easy to maintain than normal clearwater tanks. But: They are not as difficult to maintain as some of your fears seem to indicate. And additionally, there is a very interesting experience that we in Europe have made: humine acids and humine substances are important for that fish, but not necessarily a very low pH and even not necessarily true blackwater. Many Parosphromenus-species have in Germany been grown and bred in clearwater if the load of germs only was rather low. It’s the density of germs that is limiting the survival of eggs, larvae and very young blackwater fish, not the blackwater or the very low pH itself. But that helps to minimize the germ load.
Yes, try that S. vaillanti under these conditions. We have breeders with good success with these fish under similar circumstances. But look for P. harveyi or tweediei, linkei or brilliant quindecim or the new wonderfully red spec. Langgam: If they are presented adequately, they most certainly will gain new friends for those special, more biologically set-up aquaria, too.When I visited a university colleague some years ago he demonstrated his nice aquarium. Then he detected a new young fish. Some seconds later I detected a second. And then after some time we found a third and a fourth.
And then my colleague said: I call this Finke’s rule. If there is one, you must thorough investigate and you will find a second, and after some time a third and so on.
Therefore Kevin, there’s a good chance for some more … That rule is quite reliable, especially with young licorice gouramis …:)I suggest, that herewith we bring the discussion in this thread to an end. Not to stop it, o no, but to stop it here. Why?
Because it is (1) too general and fundamental, and (2) there is a misleding and a regional component in it. I explain that:
Jacob’s questions and his ideas are (1) definitely worthwhile to be discussed. The problem how a tank for blackwater fish is to be set up and cared for so that it will constitute a healthy and stable environment for fish like chocolate or licorice gouramis, is not easy to be answered. It is rewarding to discuss that in depth and we should do so. But for that purpose the category “undetermined” is not the right place. It’s not the right place (2) because the title with focus an chocolate gouramis is misleading. The discussion is much more general and fundamental, even with licorice gouramis in mind, too.
And it contains a regional component. Jacob writes from an American point of view. His experience is the aquaristic practice in the U.S., he considers the products on the U.S.-market that might help him, and he tries to develop a contrast (or supplement) program of aquaristic practice to the predominant methods.
For me, as the moderator of the “Global”-forum having a European perspective myself but trying to learn from other perspectives, too, this valuable discussion (which is not finished at this point) has a very clear message: In our regional forums (Asian, American, European) there was an important category missing which we included in this Global-Forum from the beginning: Methods. Indeed, it is reasonable and necessary to speak about methods not only globally, but also regionally. There are typical methods of fishkeeping and -breeding (and that includes the licorice gouramis) in the home countries of our fish: water, temperature, food etc. which are to be seen differently than in Europe or America. Just so are the typical European methods that have been developed for general aquaristics (the “Holland aquarium”, for instance) and others for breeding blackwater fish as Parosphromenus specifically. And just so are there typical methods that have been developed by American aquarists for meeting their special purposes in this respect. Therefore we can learn more by finishing the thread here and open it newly at different places.
For this end I have just created and installed the three “methods-categories” mentioned above newly: Asian methods, American methods, and European methods. You will find them at once in the three sections.
And Jacob (and the others) are invited to continue the discussion at the right places. But certainly: the Global methods category remains at its place, of course! So, dear users, decide, where you want to continue that and other discussions!
